annealing
- Thread starter Dan H
- Start date
Hi Dan,
We met a few yrs ago at WWCCA.
These guys got the system. http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/ If I remember, you might have deeper pockets then I.
I have been taking my group brass(2-3 tournaments) and annealing them for Score shooting. And with good results.
I have been doing it the cheap way. 12mm socket(short 6 sided) on an electric screwdriver. Spin and wait till they look like New Lapua brass(the blue stuff). Drop in water.
Sometimes a little sooner....
Don't drop them on each other. They will dent...Tumble in corn cob. Look like new. But, wait till you seat a bullet. Wow. Real consistent.
We met a few yrs ago at WWCCA.
These guys got the system. http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/ If I remember, you might have deeper pockets then I.
I have been taking my group brass(2-3 tournaments) and annealing them for Score shooting. And with good results.
I have been doing it the cheap way. 12mm socket(short 6 sided) on an electric screwdriver. Spin and wait till they look like New Lapua brass(the blue stuff). Drop in water.
Sometimes a little sooner....
Don't drop them on each other. They will dent...Tumble in corn cob. Look like new. But, wait till you seat a bullet. Wow. Real consistent.
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
You need to clean, anneal then size
Pete Wass
Well-known member
There is no need to quench
Annealing happens @ a certain temp and it's over at that point. Quenching does nothing for the process. saves a mess by not quenching and time. We have a Ken Light machine and it does not require quenching, ergo my comment.
Pete
Annealing happens @ a certain temp and it's over at that point. Quenching does nothing for the process. saves a mess by not quenching and time. We have a Ken Light machine and it does not require quenching, ergo my comment.
Pete
Last edited:
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
Quenching stops the heat from soaking farther down
Dan,
I don't know if it's a trick question or a trick answer. Usually if I am going to form something new (wildcat) I am using new cases which have already been annealed at the factory. So, the answer to that is form then anneal if it's a radical case change. If it's a small change, I don't bother until it's been fired a few times. Most of my annealing is with cases that have been fired and sized several times, so I'm restoring ductility rather than making changes. I've had good results annealing prairie dog cases once a year. With well over 1500 223ai, 20-223ai, 20vt etc, I don't think I've lost more than 5-6 to cracking. I don't think I ever lost a 30BR case. With these cases I clean, anneal and size. One other thing, the consensus with most annealers is that quenching in water doesn't do anything other than get the case wet. Annealing stops and heat stops migrating as soon as you remove the heat source. I'm certainly no metallurgist, but that seems to be the consensus.
YMMV,
Rick
I don't know if it's a trick question or a trick answer. Usually if I am going to form something new (wildcat) I am using new cases which have already been annealed at the factory. So, the answer to that is form then anneal if it's a radical case change. If it's a small change, I don't bother until it's been fired a few times. Most of my annealing is with cases that have been fired and sized several times, so I'm restoring ductility rather than making changes. I've had good results annealing prairie dog cases once a year. With well over 1500 223ai, 20-223ai, 20vt etc, I don't think I've lost more than 5-6 to cracking. I don't think I ever lost a 30BR case. With these cases I clean, anneal and size. One other thing, the consensus with most annealers is that quenching in water doesn't do anything other than get the case wet. Annealing stops and heat stops migrating as soon as you remove the heat source. I'm certainly no metallurgist, but that seems to be the consensus.
YMMV,
Rick
Randy Jarvais
New member
Brass conducts heat...
and will continue to conduct heat until the temp stabilizes. If the case neck is hotter than the web area, the heat will migrate until equalized. Without a heat source, the area the hottest is decreasing and most likely when the heat in the case stabilizes the temp will be below the temp needed to anneal. Two things come into play when annealing, the amount of time in the heat source and the temp of the heat source. You can anneal at the highest possible temp with a very short time cycle or at a lower temp with a longer time in the heat source. Of course if the temp never gets into the range necessary for annealing, no amount of time in the heat source will result in an annealing process. Using the Ken Light annealing tool, the body of the case is well protected from the heat source so quenching is generally not necessary, but not all people are using such a tool. I certainly think a situation could require quenching but in such a case, the neck is probably softer than needed and will require some work hardening to be at best value. I suspect that people that quench are doing so to be on the safe side of things, which is never a bad thing, but may not be necessary. Research the required temp necessary for annealing brass and use templac (spelling??) or some indicator of temp reached on your brass, both on the neck and on the case body. That will tell you whether you have adequate heat while not having too much heat. I have been on both sides of this fence until I got comfortable with the process I used.
and will continue to conduct heat until the temp stabilizes. If the case neck is hotter than the web area, the heat will migrate until equalized. Without a heat source, the area the hottest is decreasing and most likely when the heat in the case stabilizes the temp will be below the temp needed to anneal. Two things come into play when annealing, the amount of time in the heat source and the temp of the heat source. You can anneal at the highest possible temp with a very short time cycle or at a lower temp with a longer time in the heat source. Of course if the temp never gets into the range necessary for annealing, no amount of time in the heat source will result in an annealing process. Using the Ken Light annealing tool, the body of the case is well protected from the heat source so quenching is generally not necessary, but not all people are using such a tool. I certainly think a situation could require quenching but in such a case, the neck is probably softer than needed and will require some work hardening to be at best value. I suspect that people that quench are doing so to be on the safe side of things, which is never a bad thing, but may not be necessary. Research the required temp necessary for annealing brass and use templac (spelling??) or some indicator of temp reached on your brass, both on the neck and on the case body. That will tell you whether you have adequate heat while not having too much heat. I have been on both sides of this fence until I got comfortable with the process I used.
Dan H
New member
Thanks Rick, Randy and Francis. Not a trick question Rick just wondering as I've seen that folks want the primer hole free and I was wondering why. Unless your have a dedicated depriming tool a person would have to run the brass through the forming die to loose the spent primer. I guess I can't see the advantage to depriming first. Francis just trying to set the young man straight, and you need to behave, remember who you are sharing a bench with at River Bend.
Dan Honert
Dan Honert
Hey Pete. Thanks. I guess, putting them on a towel to cool would work? Or something else?
Pete Wass
Well-known member
A lot of this depends
on how hot one is heating to. I think you said you are heating to straw color? If so, I am convinced that with heat rising, there is no need to quench them. It would seem to me that if there is no color change to the brass much below where one is applying the heat, annealing is not going on down there. There are a few examples of folks annealing on YouTube that might be worth watching. One in particular that has intrigued me is a lad using and induction heat tool, generally used in the Automotive trade. Watch that one if you can find it. If I were to start over, I would buy one of those. I have sniffed around for small induction tool, less expensive that the one shown on YouTube but have not had luck. I think is far and away the best option.
Pete
on how hot one is heating to. I think you said you are heating to straw color? If so, I am convinced that with heat rising, there is no need to quench them. It would seem to me that if there is no color change to the brass much below where one is applying the heat, annealing is not going on down there. There are a few examples of folks annealing on YouTube that might be worth watching. One in particular that has intrigued me is a lad using and induction heat tool, generally used in the Automotive trade. Watch that one if you can find it. If I were to start over, I would buy one of those. I have sniffed around for small induction tool, less expensive that the one shown on YouTube but have not had luck. I think is far and away the best option.
Pete
D. E. Laneer
New member
I have been annealing using a Bench Source tool for several years.
Forming cases from Lapua straight out of the box is not a problem but after fire forming I anneal again.
I experimented with new Win. 30-06 a while back, expanding necks to round without annealing and after annealing,
this is new brass.
An amazing difference in the effort of expanding out of the box versus annealed out of the box.
From my experiment I assumed that Win. brass is not annealed before being shipped to the customers.
I will continue to anneal new brass before using with the exception of Lapua.
I water quench my brass after annealing only to make it quicker to handle, I have a Franklin Arsenal brass dryer.
Forming cases from Lapua straight out of the box is not a problem but after fire forming I anneal again.
I experimented with new Win. 30-06 a while back, expanding necks to round without annealing and after annealing,
this is new brass.
An amazing difference in the effort of expanding out of the box versus annealed out of the box.
From my experiment I assumed that Win. brass is not annealed before being shipped to the customers.
I will continue to anneal new brass before using with the exception of Lapua.
I water quench my brass after annealing only to make it quicker to handle, I have a Franklin Arsenal brass dryer.
M
Mozella
Guest
Here's my 2 cants. Hand load is fun but plenty tedious, so I try to minimize the number of steps. Most precision shooters believe consistency is important. Most also believe that neck tension has a significant effect on precision. It's clear that neck hardness effects how the case reacts when it's sized and that's why many precision shooters anneal each time.
In a firing/loading cycle there are two events which work harden the case; firing and sizing. And one event which softens the case; annealing.
I'm of the opinion you can anneal before or after sizing, particularly if you anneal each time. I fire a single shot bolt gun without an ejector. I remove the spent case, put it on a clean towel and then into a baggie. Once in the reloading room, I lube the cases and deprime them in a neck-bump neck-sizing die which includes a depriming pin. I can do this because the cases never get dirty or gritty.
Then I tumble them in wet SS media, dry them, and anneal them. At this point they're ready to prime, charge, and seat.
Or, if you like or if your cases get gritty at the range, you could deprime them with a dedicated universal deprimer, clean them, anneal them, lube them, size them, clean them again, and then prime, charge, and seat.
With my routine the cases are slightly softer when I seat the bullets and slightly harder when I resize the necks than if I were to anneal just before resizing. If you anneal and then size the necks would be slightly softer during resizing and slightly harder during bullet seating. If there is a difference with the end result, it is small. The most important thing is that you use the same routine for each cycle.
Of course, if hitting a paper plate most of the time at 50 yards is sufficient precision and especially if you anneal once a year, then a different routine might be appropriate. But for those who anneal each time, I think you should choose a routine which gives you the most efficient work flow, unless you're trying to get away from your wife in which case the least efficient method might be preferable.
In a firing/loading cycle there are two events which work harden the case; firing and sizing. And one event which softens the case; annealing.
I'm of the opinion you can anneal before or after sizing, particularly if you anneal each time. I fire a single shot bolt gun without an ejector. I remove the spent case, put it on a clean towel and then into a baggie. Once in the reloading room, I lube the cases and deprime them in a neck-bump neck-sizing die which includes a depriming pin. I can do this because the cases never get dirty or gritty.
Then I tumble them in wet SS media, dry them, and anneal them. At this point they're ready to prime, charge, and seat.
Or, if you like or if your cases get gritty at the range, you could deprime them with a dedicated universal deprimer, clean them, anneal them, lube them, size them, clean them again, and then prime, charge, and seat.
With my routine the cases are slightly softer when I seat the bullets and slightly harder when I resize the necks than if I were to anneal just before resizing. If you anneal and then size the necks would be slightly softer during resizing and slightly harder during bullet seating. If there is a difference with the end result, it is small. The most important thing is that you use the same routine for each cycle.
Of course, if hitting a paper plate most of the time at 50 yards is sufficient precision and especially if you anneal once a year, then a different routine might be appropriate. But for those who anneal each time, I think you should choose a routine which gives you the most efficient work flow, unless you're trying to get away from your wife in which case the least efficient method might be preferable.
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
I use a benchsource. Heavy heat fast time. I quench them because i use tempilaq and have watched the heat migrate after flame is removed. If you dont see the bases get hot dont worry about it but mine will never see 400 or ill trash em and quenching gets me where i need to be. One reason to remove primers is when they flow around the firing pin a tad they wont spin level and wobble like theyve been drinking moonshine. Use tempilaq and watch what its telling you. Heat can still migrate to the base a minute later. On a ppc its not too far from the part you just heated to 700 so beware
C
CMaier
Guest
Do some simple math.
You heat the neck to 700 degrees.
Remove the heat source....no heat is added...it only moves or leaves.
You cannot maintain temp or gain heat once the source is gone.
The base will never make it to annealing temp.
You heat the neck to 700 degrees.
Remove the heat source....no heat is added...it only moves or leaves.
You cannot maintain temp or gain heat once the source is gone.
The base will never make it to annealing temp.
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
I let the tempilaq do my math. Brass conducts heat faster than it dissipates into the air. You put 400deg tempilaq on the base on a short case, anneal properly and the base gets to 400 without quenching. It doesnt hurt to quench and i prefer my bases not get to 400 but im sure its fine
C
CMaier
Guest
"Also, the time the brass remains at a given temperature will have an effect. Brass which has been "work hardened" (sometimes referred to as "cold worked") is unaffected by temperatures (Fahrenheit) up to 482 degrees (F) regardless of the time it is left at this temperature. At about 495 degrees (F) some changes in grain structure begins to occur, although the brass remains about as hard as before--it would take a laboratory analysis to see the changes that take place at this temperature."
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft."
from an annealing write up on 6mmbr
"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft."
from an annealing write up on 6mmbr
Dan H
New member
Hi
Thank's Remy
Good question Remy. Thank you all for your input, everything said is very useful.
Dan Honert
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
There are a few people over on accurate shooter experimenting with induction. They can time down to the ms and have trap doors to drop em out. Very precise