Annealing hard on neck bushing dies ???

manitou210 said:
One fellow told me after annealing and running cases in neck bushing die ruins the bushing ???
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Clearly, the person who told you that had no idea what he was talking about. As Lee said, the bushings are much harder than the brass being sized and annealing softens the brass. There is no way annealing brass could cause damage to a bushing.

Rick
 
manitou210 said:
One fellow told me after annealing and running cases in neck bushing die ruins the bushing ???
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It will not "ruin" the bushing. If however, the annealed case has not been properly deburred inside and out, I believe annealing does to some degree increase the amount of brass that becomes swaged to the bushing and button during the sizing operation. As a new BR shooter and user of Redding S dies, I learned after snapping the neck off two brand new Lapua 222 Rem cases that deburring and a spot of lube is necessary despite what some say about the titanium coated bushings not needing lube.
 
Willy said:
It will not "ruin" the bushing. If however, the annealed case has not been properly deburred inside and out, I believe annealing does to some degree increase the amount of brass that becomes swaged to the bushing and button during the sizing operation. As a new BR shooter and user of Redding S dies, I learned after snapping the neck off two brand new Lapua 222 Rem cases that deburring and a spot of lube is necessary despite what some say about the titanium coated bushings not needing lube.
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Interesting POV. If we're talking about new cases they would not need to be annealed or deburred. I don't recall ever having cases "swage" to a bushing, but then I use lube on everything, coated or not. The only times I've had necks break off of cases is when I have neck turned to far into the shoulder and made them too thin or have shot them so many times that they become brittle. Annealing would prevent the later and have nothing to do one way or the other with the former. Also, if one is using a bushing die, a button would be counter productive. Most shooters that I know do not use an expander button when using a bushing die.

YMMV,
Rick
 
Willy said:
It will not "ruin" the bushing. If however, the annealed case has not been properly deburred inside and out, I believe annealing does to some degree increase the amount of brass that becomes swaged to the bushing and button during the sizing operation. As a new BR shooter and user of Redding S dies, I learned after snapping the neck off two brand new Lapua 222 Rem cases that deburring and a spot of lube is necessary despite what some say about the titanium coated bushings not needing lube.
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Yep. Sounds like someone left the button in the die........I anneal old 6PPC brass for score shoots. Never had a problem. Some of the head stamps are hard to read. Stuff is getting old....
Take the button off the decapping pin/rod............
 
button...why a button with bushing dies...just waste
all the work you did with the bushing.
 
I dont think the tin bushings were designed to be used without lube- i mean i dont think thats why you get them over plain steel. I dont lube necks or shoulders for obvious reasons and ive never had one stick or wear out a bushing. I do debur the case mouths properly and like any precision loader i dont drag an expander ball back thru my freshly sized necks
 
Mozella said:
Just so someone new to annealing won't be led astray, it should be pointed out that by using the word "improves" you mean "reduces", right?
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but my experience with annealing says it restores elasticity. As brass becomes work hardened by firing and sizing it become harder and more brittle. Annealing reverses that process.

Rick
 
Check definition of elasticity...

Elasticity is the ability to resume it's shape after being stretched. Work hardened brass is elastic. That is why it becomes difficult to size as the brass retains/bounces back to its fired shape after it is removed from the sizing die and why you have to over bump the brass to get the same headspace you had before the brass became work hardened. When you anneal, the brass stays sized thus you have reduced its elasticity by annealing.
 
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yes you can wear out tin neck bushings.
been there done that.
when i bulk load 223 ammo i do not deburr the out side of the neck.
i let the bushing do that, it is hard on the bushing and the coating will
wear out/off. i have replaced several. cost effective for this task.

no i do not lube them.
 
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We are on Benchrest Central. My comments were about my experience with 6PPC(Dwight Scott reamer) for bushing dies. I use TIN coated bushing.
I have been using a .257 Tin bushing for 7-8 yrs. I clean it at the end of a tournament. I don't think I have ever noticed any wear.....
In my former trade we used TIN coated Uni-Bits. They last 2X as long as the regular uni-bits. And I have had them smoke. I started a small fire with the cutting fluid....Still good stuff....So I stick with TIN coating....
 
Brass wearing carbide

B.Larson said:
b.s.
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MY REPLY WAS ASSUMING BRASS WAS CLEAN.................... NOW IF YOU PUT AN ABRASIVE SUSTANCE INTO A DIE........ IT WILL AFTER A LONG WHILE WEAR IT....... JUST FOR GRINS......
TAKE A CLEAN PIECE OF BRASS...... RUB IT ON A PIECE OF CARBIDE..... KEEP CAREFUL TRACK OF NUMBER OF STROKES AND MEASUREMENTS.... HOPEING WE ARE BOTH STILL ALIVE....... WHEN IT SHOWS WEAR WE CAN DISCUSS IT FURTHER.......
bill
 
I agree. my point was in very high volume you may see wear, so keep your eyes open.
There was i time when i went through thousands at a time.
We are not on the competition forum,
so general data will show up.


zippy06 said:
We are on Benchrest Central. My comments were about my experience with 6PPC(Dwight Scott reamer) for bushing dies. I use TIN coated bushing.
I have been using a .257 Tin bushing for 7-8 yrs. I clean it at the end of a tournament. I don't think I have ever noticed any wear.....
In my former trade we used TIN coated Uni-Bits. They last 2X as long as the regular uni-bits. And I have had them smoke. I started a small fire with the cutting fluid....Still good stuff....So I stick with TIN coating....
Click to expand...
 
Greyfox said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but my experience with annealing says it restores elasticity. As brass becomes work hardened by firing and sizing it become harder and more brittle. Annealing reverses that process.

Rick
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The second part of your post is correct, but you're misunderstanding the meaning of "elasticity" as it pertains to metals. Short answer: Annealing reduces elasticity.

Long answer: Most metals, including brass, are "elastic" to one degree or another. It might be easier to think of a piece of steel, as an example. A piece of "spring" steel, like a piece of "piano wire" is made from tempered high-carbon steel. It is a perfect illustration of a metal having high elasticity. You can bend it quite a bit and it will spring back to the original shape. However, if you bend it far enough, it will not spring back. Those who study metals would say you "have exceeded the elastic limit" of the material. If you take a piece of a wire coat hanger or straighten out a paper clip you can bend it a little bit and it will spring back to the original shape. But, since these metals are not tempered in the same way as piano wire, it takes less bending to deform them; i.e. they are less elastic. When you bend most familiar metals enough to permanently deform them, you are in the "plastic deformation" range.

Cartridge brass, when it's fired or sized, undergoes plastic deformation and we can easily see that by, to use one example, measuring the neck diameter before firing, after firing, and after sizing. Repeating this process (without annealing) makes the brass harder, more "springy", more elastic. This process is called work hardening. The brass becomes more brittle and subject to cracking. It also "springs back" more after sizing because it is more elastic.

Annealing cartridge brass reverses the effects of work hardening and makes it "softer". It becomes more "ductile", meaning it's easier to permanently deform. It is correct to say that it becomes less elastic after annealing, not more elastic.

I suspect you already know all this with the exception of how the word "elastic" is used to describe the behavior of metals.
 
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