Great read! Thanks
Annealers
- Thread starter Pete Wass
- Start date
Great read! Thanks
I still prefer salt at a slightly lower temp.
It should reduce the deviations caused by timing errors in a very short high temperature process.
In a fully automated and mechanized system it is likely less important.
As long as everything remains exactly the same from case to case.
Things like flame heat output, actual temp vs.time.
A 1 seconds error on a 10 seconds process double compared to a 1 second error on a 20 second process.
And when you are doing things manually tight timing is very difficult to maintain.
It should reduce the deviations caused by timing errors in a very short high temperature process.
In a fully automated and mechanized system it is likely less important.
As long as everything remains exactly the same from case to case.
Things like flame heat output, actual temp vs.time.
A 1 seconds error on a 10 seconds process double compared to a 1 second error on a 20 second process.
And when you are doing things manually tight timing is very difficult to maintain.
Andy Cross
New member
Testing
Hi Brickeyee Just wondering who did your testing in your neck of the woods to confirm you were hitting the mark with your method.
Andy.
Hi Brickeyee Just wondering who did your testing in your neck of the woods to confirm you were hitting the mark with your method.
Andy.
GeneT
Active member
You really can't claim that a flame is touchier than a salt bath because it's hotter. There's a huge difference in heat transfer. The flame is acting in air (a lousy thermal transfer media) while the salt bath is acting by conduction. It's like the difference between putting your hand in a 350* oven (not even uncomfortable at first) versus reaching in and grabbing the rack (almost instantly damaging).
GsT
GsT
The flame has intimate contact.
Not radiation heat transfer (IR).
It is way hotter than needed.
You do not want dead soft case necks.
They produce very low neck tension till work hardened again.
You do not want fully hard necks either.
They split all to easily.
Not that much of a deal on bulk ammunition for casual blasting but a real penalty on formed, neck turned, and altered cases.
BR guys often have relatively few cases for competition.
There is even tooling available to tighten loose primer pockets to save those well prepared cases for another go round.
I only had about 20 or 30 cases for by BR style live varmint rifle for longer range shots.
It was accurate enough that it produced one shot kills on groundhogs at somewhat 'extended' range.
When you shoot over animals they start to learn to keep you even further away.
Crows are even worse then groundhogs.
Probbaly their better eyes.
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jackie schmidt
New member
You can claim that, because it is true. A 3500f flame against the neck v a bath of 800f? The window of annealing is much smaller with the flame. If I forget I’m annealing necks in 800f and go have a sandwich, 10 minutes later they will still be around 800f
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Seems right to me
All the cases I have had annealed with flame have at least a dark spot on them, varying in size. It seems to me, immersing them in a hot liquid at a controlled temperature is a better way to do the job. Time will tell.
Pete
You can claim that, because it is true. A 3500f flame against the neck v a bath of 800f? The window of annealing is much smaller with the flame. If I forget I’m annealing necks in 800f and go have a sandwich, 10 minutes later they will still be around 800f
All the cases I have had annealed with flame have at least a dark spot on them, varying in size. It seems to me, immersing them in a hot liquid at a controlled temperature is a better way to do the job. Time will tell.
Pete
Bill Wynne
Active member
Good thread
This has been one of the best threads ever. Plenty of information and little BS. I am not sure that I will ever anneal any cases myself but I have a better concept of what it is. For what it is worth, I like the idea of the hot "salt" bath. It seems the temperature is more constant. I think that if I ever feel the need to anneal some of my brass I will take them to a friend who has a setup and watch.
This has been one of the best threads ever. Plenty of information and little BS. I am not sure that I will ever anneal any cases myself but I have a better concept of what it is. For what it is worth, I like the idea of the hot "salt" bath. It seems the temperature is more constant. I think that if I ever feel the need to anneal some of my brass I will take them to a friend who has a setup and watch.
It is pretty cheap to get going in annealing with the salt bath. Nothing cosmic required. Try it and you’ll see how easy, accurate and quick. I only do 50-100 at a time, so your mileage may vary.
Hard to argue numbers. There is no question the lower temps are more forgiving, thus more accurate. The days of using a torch in a dark room with a pan to tip them over in are long gone.
Hard to argue numbers. There is no question the lower temps are more forgiving, thus more accurate. The days of using a torch in a dark room with a pan to tip them over in are long gone.
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Al
funny thing about absolutes, huh?
I must have missed that memo.......
I did 50 yesterday with my little torch setup.
funny thing about absolutes, huh?
funny thing about absolutes, huh?
Yeah, buddy. Thanks for the package, by the way. Like the Amy Winehouse song, they've since "...been to rehab"
and are now working slick. Lots of ways to skin cats, for sure. Good shootin'.
-Al"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Bill Wynne
Active member
Al, Where did you get your Burns annealer? It looks simple like me. Did you buy it or make it?
Bill, I got it years ago from Todd Kindler at The Woodchucks Den. Not sure if he's still in business or not. I mistakenly referred to it as a Burns...it's actually a Meeks annealer. It's pretty simple...a trip to the local Ace Hardware store will get you everything you need. I've made several. -Al
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
R
retired
Guest
i agree.
i like my amp!
i like my amp!
Amp and other annealer types
From the discussion on annealing, it would appear that the only way one
would know if the brass was properly annealed is by testing procedures.
Amp uses the brass hardness and strength to remove the bullet from the
case as an indicator that the brass was annealed properly.
I have torched annealed in the past using the paint sticks of 750 F
for the neck and 450 F for the brass base.to determine if the brass was annealed.properly.
I currently use an induction device for brass annealing of the neck(paint sticks at 750)
and the 450 F stick for the base to prevent overheating the brass.
However, the amp device appears to give the best brass annealing as they
have done all of the hardness testing and other testing for each caliber.
Salt annealing appears to have some merit. However, what test does one use
to determine if the brass has annealed. One cannot use a paint stick in the salt
and see the paint melt at 750F. Therefore, one may have to conduct a vickers hardness
test to determine if the brass annealed properly at some temperature and time frame.
I have been annealing 6PPC brass for about four years and have seen
some improvement in group size. However, their are a lot of variables that affect
the rifle tune. I tune with powder, seating depth and neck tension. Then a tuner is
utilized to broaden the tune. Depending on the weather change and other variables,
I simply move the tuner until one gets two bullets over one another on the sighter
and then go to record. Therefore, it is difficult to determine improvements due to
brass annealing. Brass neck and other separation issues are a result of excessive
head space, improper sizing dies etc.
Annealing certainly has its place in bench rest shooting
however one has to conduct some testing and ascertain the frequency
and annealing device to validate the improvement.
tunermi
From the discussion on annealing, it would appear that the only way one
would know if the brass was properly annealed is by testing procedures.
Amp uses the brass hardness and strength to remove the bullet from the
case as an indicator that the brass was annealed properly.
I have torched annealed in the past using the paint sticks of 750 F
for the neck and 450 F for the brass base.to determine if the brass was annealed.properly.
I currently use an induction device for brass annealing of the neck(paint sticks at 750)
and the 450 F stick for the base to prevent overheating the brass.
However, the amp device appears to give the best brass annealing as they
have done all of the hardness testing and other testing for each caliber.
Salt annealing appears to have some merit. However, what test does one use
to determine if the brass has annealed. One cannot use a paint stick in the salt
and see the paint melt at 750F. Therefore, one may have to conduct a vickers hardness
test to determine if the brass annealed properly at some temperature and time frame.
I have been annealing 6PPC brass for about four years and have seen
some improvement in group size. However, their are a lot of variables that affect
the rifle tune. I tune with powder, seating depth and neck tension. Then a tuner is
utilized to broaden the tune. Depending on the weather change and other variables,
I simply move the tuner until one gets two bullets over one another on the sighter
and then go to record. Therefore, it is difficult to determine improvements due to
brass annealing. Brass neck and other separation issues are a result of excessive
head space, improper sizing dies etc.
Annealing certainly has its place in bench rest shooting
however one has to conduct some testing and ascertain the frequency
and annealing device to validate the improvement.
tunermi