Ammunition for Shorter Ranges

you have fun out there with your personal beliefs and opinions.
why did you ask to begin with ?
i have 2 223's that shoot in the 2's.
i know little about 223's in spite owning
six or seven.
bye
 
you have fun out there with your personal beliefs and opinions.
why did you ask to begin with ?
i have 2 223's that shoot in the 2's.
i know little about 223's in spite owning
six or seven.
bye
You too!

I guess I will just be left to wonder how iron vs glass sight selection affects bullet weight choice...
 
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I guess I will just be left to wonder how iron vs glass sight selection affects bullet weight choice...

Questioning iron or optical sights WRT bullet weight makes little sense. Bullet weight - as well as design - should be chosen based on the use the rifle is put to. Sights should be considered after other decisions are made. Don't put the cart before the horse.

You have stated that you wish to shoot out to 300 yards. OK, best accuracy at that distance pretty much eliminates light bullets unless you live where the wind never blows. That means bullets in the 69 ~ 80 grain range would be preferred. That dictates a rate of twist of 1:8 or 1:7. A slower rate is unlikely to provide good accuracy with those weight bullets.

Once a rifle has been acquired with the desired rate of twist, you WILL require a decent scope to test loads for best accuracy. Sure, you can use iron sights but the best load with cutting edge accuracy will be determined using a scope.

You may even consider using two bullets as it's generally accepted that boat-tail bullets don't stabilize until they're past 100 yards. At 100 yards, flat base bullets generally work best. At 200 & 300 yards, a BT bullet should be better. You'll never know until you test your loads and iron sights will NOT provide the best answer.

Now that you have your rifle and load(s), it's time to decide the sight question. Iron sights, especially aperture sights, will be OK on targets large enough for you to see at distance. I've shot .22LR out to 250 yards with irons and done pretty well on reasonably sized targets BUT a properly scoped rifle will be required for targets that can't be seen easily with the naked eye.

So the answer to your curiosity is this: bullet weight selection will be determined by what the rifle likes best. Sights will be determined by just how precise the shooter wants to be but at 200 & 300 yards, a scope is likely to be best.
 
Questioning iron or optical sights WRT bullet weight makes little sense. Bullet weight - as well as design - should be chosen based on the use the rifle is put to. Sights should be considered after other decisions are made. Don't put the cart before the horse.

You have stated that you wish to shoot out to 300 yards. OK, best accuracy at that distance pretty much eliminates light bullets unless you live where the wind never blows. That means bullets in the 69 ~ 80 grain range would be preferred. That dictates a rate of twist of 1:8 or 1:7. A slower rate is unlikely to provide good accuracy with those weight bullets.

Once a rifle has been acquired with the desired rate of twist, you WILL require a decent scope to test loads for best accuracy. Sure, you can use iron sights but the best load with cutting edge accuracy will be determined using a scope.

You may even consider using two bullets as it's generally accepted that boat-tail bullets don't stabilize until they're past 100 yards. At 100 yards, flat base bullets generally work best. At 200 & 300 yards, a BT bullet should be better. You'll never know until you test your loads and iron sights will NOT provide the best answer.

Now that you have your rifle and load(s), it's time to decide the sight question. Iron sights, especially aperture sights, will be OK on targets large enough for you to see at distance. I've shot .22LR out to 250 yards with irons and done pretty well on reasonably sized targets BUT a properly scoped rifle will be required for targets that can't be seen easily with the naked eye.

So the answer to your curiosity is this: bullet weight selection will be determined by what the rifle likes best. Sights will be determined by just how precise the shooter wants to be but at 200 & 300 yards, a scope is likely to be best.

Just because I've made the mistake of being involved, I must go on record as disagreeing in fact and intent with this post. Were I not involved I'd leave it lay but ignoring it now implies agreement.

And I don't agree. The facts don't support it.

The fact that a thing is "generally accepted" does not make it true, in point of fact historically mob rule is more often wrong than right.

Some of us on this forum place facts above beliefs and feelings....as proven by the FACT that I've an open $1000.00 bet here and elsewhere on the innernet regarding bullets "not stabilizing" etc etc.....you show me a setup that groups better at 300 than 100, make money, have a free vacay in the beauteous PNW, prove anilwa wrong.... what could be better?

I gener'ly don't argue, it's put up or shut up around here on Ye Olde Alinwa Range. Leave your closed mind at home, bring the open one....and your curiosity, it's possibly the Greatest Gift.
 
Me' Uncle Reg from Pittsboi'gh useta' start off with "I tell ya' THIS story ta tell ya' the NEXT one"

Point being, until you know what you don't know, information is meaningless.

And useless.
 
Just because I've made the mistake of being involved, I must go on record as disagreeing in fact and intent with this post. Were I not involved I'd leave it lay but ignoring it now implies agreement.

And I don't agree. The facts don't support it.

The fact that a thing is "generally accepted" does not make it true, in point of fact historically mob rule is more often wrong than right.

Some of us on this forum place facts above beliefs and feelings....as proven by the FACT that I've an open $1000.00 bet here and elsewhere on the innernet regarding bullets "not stabilizing" etc etc.....you show me a setup that groups better at 300 than 100, make money, have a free vacay in the beauteous PNW, prove anilwa wrong.... what could be better?

I gener'ly don't argue, it's put up or shut up around here on Ye Olde Alinwa Range. Leave your closed mind at home, bring the open one....and your curiosity, it's possibly the Greatest Gift.

So, you disagree with one point in my post. It's now up to YOU to prove that point wrong and, while you say the facts don't support my point, all you've said so far is your OPINION. What "facts" do you have to support your OPINION that is no better than MY opinion?

BTW, the information that BT bullets don't fully stabilize until beyond 100 yards has been around much longer than the internet. If it's wrong, do I lose a birthday or something?

Nitpick away.
 
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the information that BT bullets don't fully stabilize until beyond 100 yards has been around much longer
Nitpick away.
as you pointed out
WHAT FACTS/DATA/DOCUMENTATION
do you have to support your OPINION ?

some of the very best br bullets are boattails, and are shot at 100 yards.
i guess they using them because they were at hand, not because they shot well.
 
So, you disagree with one point in my post. It's now up to YOU to prove that point wrong and, while you say the facts don't support my point, all you've said so far is your OPINION. What "facts" do you have to support your OPINION that is no better than MY opinion?

BTW, the information that BT bullets don't fully stabilize until beyond 100 yards has been around much longer than the internet. If it's wrong, do I lose a birthday or something?

Nitpick away.

Well, not really.

I didn't say that, I said "I must go on record as disagreeing in fact and intent with this post" which perty much means the entire thing....I'm allowed to do that by the way.

Hopefully without raising hackles.

As far as bullets stabilizing....I remember reading the article Gale McMillan wrote on the subject back in the early 80's and that idea was old then. It was a "known fact" by the 1940's that the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) got better with distance because the bullets didn't stabilize at 100...but the problem is, it's no longer the 1940's. There are really no ballistic mysteries anymore. This stuff is no longer speculative, it's easily tested and proven. To the point that nowadays a "known fact" had better be provable. And the simple FACT is that bullets don't "tighten up with distance" as has been proclaimed for years. As regards my bet, I have acoustic targets through which you can shoot bullets and record groups at different yardages. This means THE SAME GROUPS as measured at say 100, 200 and 350 to see this stability thing for real. I can, and do, and have for years fired groups through multiple targets and over multiple chronographs testing this stuff.

I'm just not about comparing opinions nor nitpicking. I'm about testing. Unless a thing is repeatable, testable and consistently repeatable it's not a fact.
 
Well, not really.

I didn't say that, I said "I must go on record as disagreeing in fact and intent with this post" which perty much means the entire thing....I'm allowed to do that by the way.

Hopefully without raising hackles.

As far as bullets stabilizing....I remember reading the article Gale McMillan wrote on the subject back in the early 80's and that idea was old then. It was a "known fact" by the 1940's that the Lee Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) got better with distance because the bullets didn't stabilize at 100...but the problem is, it's no longer the 1940's. There are really no ballistic mysteries anymore. This stuff is no longer speculative, it's easily tested and proven. To the point that nowadays a "known fact" had better be provable. And the simple FACT is that bullets don't "tighten up with distance" as has been proclaimed for years. As regards my bet, I have acoustic targets through which you can shoot bullets and record groups at different yardages. This means THE SAME GROUPS as measured at say 100, 200 and 350 to see this stability thing for real. I can, and do, and have for years fired groups through multiple targets and over multiple chronographs testing this stuff.

I'm just not about comparing opinions nor nitpicking. I'm about testing. Unless a thing is repeatable, testable and consistently repeatable it's not a fact.

That's a much more reasonable reply. I took your first post as not only disagreeing but also disagreeable. I generally reply as I'm addressed. I can be pleasant... or not.

Of course you may disagree but what exactly do you disagree with other than the idea that the BT bullets don't stabilize until past 100 yards? What else do you find objectionable or wrong? Do you disagree that light bullets are subject to wind more so than heavier bullets in a .223? Or that a bullet should be matched to the rate of twist? Or that optical sights are necessary to achieve best accuracy at distance? What else is wrong in your view?

As for "proof", I'd rather see high speed video of BT bullets at say 95 ~ 105 yards to see if there is discernible wobble. Then video at greater distances to compare. Shooting targets is fine but visual proof is better.

If the BT stabilization theory is wrong, that's fine with me. I was only trying to help the OP with his question, not start a protracted debate or argument.
 
I think, don't know for sure as I haven't competed in a long time, that boat tail bullets are winning competition Benchrest matches these days at 100 yards. For my limited purpose....that's all I need to know. On the other hand, if folks are shooting them at 200 yards only somebody please tell me.
 
I think, don't know for sure as I haven't competed in a long time, that boat tail bullets are winning competition Benchrest matches these days at 100 yards.

Pretty sure they are. The fellow next to me last Saturday was using a 30 BR rifle and BT bullets. In some pretty stiff winds he shot a 250-21X of a possible 250-25X. He probably has 4 or 5 times as much invested in his custom rifle as I do in a box stock factory rifle. Fortunately, we're in different classes.

Me? I was using a .308 with Nosler 140 grain Custom Competition BT bullets and shot a 247-10X. The wind got me 3 times. The 3 points I dropped were by a combined .230"; less than 1/4 inch.
 
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