Ammonia Based Bore Cleaners

L

Locoweed

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Does anyone know anything about "fire cracking" in the throat or bore of rifles caused by using bore cleaners containing a lot of ammonia, such as Sweets 7.62 cleaner?

(Also posted in the .22 rimfire section of this forum.)
 
"Firecracking" results from heat stress caused by burning powder gasses in the bore, not the chamber. And solvents have nothing at all to do with it.
 
You can be sure...

Locoweed said:
Does anyone know anything about "fire cracking" in the throat or bore of rifles caused by using bore cleaners containing a lot of ammonia, such as Sweets 7.62 cleaner?

(Also posted in the .22 rimfire section of this forum.)
Click to expand...

If Sweet's caused "fire cracking" it would have been dropped like a hot potato years ago in the benchrest circles; instead of still being in general use today.

virg
 
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Never Heard That One

Just about every bore cleaner used by Benchrest Shooters contains ammonia. I feel safe in saying that it has no affect on the integrety of the throat........jackie
 
Locoweed said:
Does anyone know anything about "fire cracking" in the throat or bore of rifles caused by using bore cleaners containing a lot of ammonia, such as Sweets 7.62 cleaner?

(Also posted in the .22 rimfire section of this forum.)
Click to expand...

Locoweed,

I'd love to know the credentials of the person that told you this silly crap. Don't ask them for any more advise on anything related to firearms, accuracy or shooting.

Jay, Idaho
 
Jay said:
Locoweed,

I'd love to know the credentials of the person that told you this silly crap. Don't ask them for any more advise on anything related to firearms, accuracy or shooting.

Jay, Idaho
Click to expand...

Years ago this was the thinking of more than a few barrel makers. I have no idea of what their current thinking is. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other. I've used ammonia solvents for years. I now use a much better copper remover that has no ammonia(KG-9) and it cleans faster than all the other junk I've made or used (all of which had ammonia). Still get the so called fire cracking.

This worry comes about because our attention from the use of the Hawkeye bore scope. This fire cracking was going on before we had them, we just couldn't see it.

The cure is to start saving for the next barrel from the first shot on the current barrel.

Ain't no free ride in this shooting game.
 
Jay said:
Locoweed,

I'd love to know the credentials of the person that told you this silly crap. Don't ask them for any more advise on anything related to firearms, accuracy or shooting.

Jay, Idaho
Click to expand...


Not that I agree, but there are a few well qualified competitors out there that do stay away from the heavy ammonias, see the following;..........Don

http://www.bordenrifles.com/clean.pdf


"BORDEN'S ACCURACY

PAGE 2
Edited July 2, 2008

We do not recommend the use of any strongly ammoniated compounds. The ammoniated compounds are rapid corrosive agents in 416 Stainless Steel. Following the above cleaning procedures should minimize or prevent the build up of copper fouling if done properly. Many individuals have used the ammoniated compounds to “test” to see if they have copper fouling. Please be fore-warned that once the strong ammoniated compounds are used in SS bores, etching has usually occurred and then copper fouling and pitting can be expected."
 
Been using them for many years and I use the Bore Scope as well. Never any damage and I have left it in the bore many times overnight on both my BR tubes and Sporters with no issues. All of them are SS and not CM.
 
416 SS and ammonia not a good mix

ammonia and 416 SS are not a good combination--etching occurs. Particularly when put against sensitized surface.


If 400 series SS was good for ammonia use it would be used in pulp and paper mills to transport ammonia for digesters--but, it is not only not used--it is not allowed to be used as it will not last.

Jim
 
Jim - The next logical question is: What effect does etching have on bullet travel? Will it cause gas escape? Erratic behavior? Have you tested an etched barrel for accuracy? Can etching be removed? By what method?
 
300 series stainless is what is used in corrosive environment such as 304 and 316. 400 series is heat treatable the 300 series is not.
 
Coming from a...

Jim Borden said:
ammonia and 416 SS are not a good combination--etching occurs. Particularly when put against sensitized surface.


If 400 series SS was good for ammonia use it would be used in pulp and paper mills to transport ammonia for digesters--but, it is not only not used--it is not allowed to be used as it will not last.

Jim
Click to expand...

Coming from a very respected and well proven benchrest gun smith, I just don't understand the above statement. Why do we still see Sweet's and Butch's Boreshine still in general use when they are both ammonia based solvents? All the SS barrels I know of are made of 416 and I just don't hear complaints of bore damage from their use.:confused:

Confused,
virg
 
Soaking

I believe Butch's recommends their solvent for extended soaking. I use TM and a breech plug to allow barrels to soak for a couple of days and they only shoot better.
 
it also depends on the heat treat

I can't speak for 416, but I used to make chemical injection pump pistons out of 440C to pump a highly corrosive ammonia salt mixture. I would buy the stock solution annealed and rough it in within .003. At this point the material would rust fairly easily with the ammonia compound. After I heat treat and double temper I would grind the pistons to final size. I never had any come back because of corrosion issues. And this stuff would make bore cleaner seem tame by comparasion. Would be interesting to know if 416 acts in a somewhat comparable manner.

The reason for 440 over 316 was an abrasion issue.

Richard
 
ccg said:
300 series stainless is what is used in corrosive environment such as 304 and 316. 400 series is heat treatable the 300 series is not.
Click to expand...

Who told you 300 series SS isn't heat treatable?
Different annealing heats is what gives it it's corrosion resistance.
 
I'd also like to know the process you use to harden 416SS.

Mike Swartz
 
Hardenning Stainless Steels

The general rule is that the most common 300 series stainless steels are Austenitic, in that they do not repond to a heat treating or age hardenning proccess as do alloy steels, 400 series stainless steels, or precipitation hardenning stainless steels.

You can improve the properties by cold working, as in rolloing, but in general, the properties that they poccess are due to the originol alloy content.

Martensitic stainless steels, such as the 400's, respond to a regular hardenning and tempering proccess much like alloy steels.

In other words, you can take a piece of 303, 304, 316,or what ever 300 series stainless, heat it and quench it all you want, and it's properties are not going to change, other than some generized scaling, warpage or other affects of severe heating and quenching..
 
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