Am I wasting time and money?

B

Bnhpr

Ben Hooper
I was surprised when my friend Mike brought me a new Savage model 12 hvy bbl, left hand rifle in .308w and said it wouldn't shoot. (accurately)

Mike is a disciplined reloader and shot. He was talking 1.5" groups with 168, 175 smks and several Berger bullets we shoot frequently.

I removed the plastic stock and pillar bedded it into a laminated benchrest stock. The groups maybe came in 15%, but still commonly over an inch.

I have a Broughton 12 twist 5c bbl 30 cal, and was considering fitting it without the nut. .334nk reamer for lapua brass.

Am I wasting my time and his money? (which both are very limited) I hear a lot of people on this site brag on the Savages, but he and I are on the fence about getting him a 700LH or custom and starting over.

Either way, I will chuck the bbl up and see what kinda runout it has.

Ben
 
Make sure you don't have an ignition or scope problem. Problem may lay somewhere other than the barrel.

Hovis
 
Ben,

I would take a close look at the crown of the bbl. That is the last part of the rifle the bullet sees and probably the easiest (mechanically) to fix.

Even if it looks OK, I would be tempted to touch it up.

Bob
 
Before you go altering the gun (metalwork on the crown, etc.), call the factory. I'm guessing 1.5 moa is a bit more than they will allow for. Might involve sending the gun back to get it looked at, but they usually do pretty good at making things right.
 
Most Savage rifles I've seen have been decent shooting rifles, but not all. My brother-in-law was looking for a good prairie dog rifle in 223 and I steered him to the Savage stainless, fluted, laminated stock, accutrigger, with the single shot action. I borescoped the barrel when it came in and it was a little rougher than I expected, so I told him to spend some time on the break-in. The best it would do was about 3/4" 5 shot groups and always loaded up with copper.
After pillar bedding, it maintained zero better, but was not significantly more accurate. He finally got fed up and had me fit a stainless 12" twist heavy Krieger. I eliminated the barrel nut, filled the magazine mortise and rebedded the gun. I kept asking him how it was shooting and he would just look sad and say he thought I should shoot it. I finally was at the range when he was and sat down and fired a 5 shot group off my Wichita rest and on shot number 4, the crosshair just started to move low and right as the shot broke and I called it. When we pulled the target he had a .235" 5 shot group with 4 shots about .125". I asked him if it shot like that all the time and he just grinned at me.
Long story to say I would definitely rebarrel that Savage.
 
Take a good Look...

...at the scope. I had a very good customer bring me all of the components for his Remington 700, F T/R class rifle. I did all the machine work for a “Full Monte Rifle” including the inletting and glass bedding. When I took it to the range to test fire it I was getting ¾” to 1” groups at 100 yards with a proven load and reamer in a well known barrel. I was about to call the customer and tell him that I was going to have to replace the barrel because it wouldn't shoot. As I got my cell phone out a very good buddy came by and asked who kicked my favorite dog? I asked why and he said I looked very sad, I told him the story. He pealed the scope off his rifle and I installed it on my customer’s rifle. After I got it sighted in, I shot three five shots groups’ right at ¼” with the same ammo. The only change was the scope and the passage of half an hour. I called the customer, told him the story and he ordered a new scope from a well known maker and had us install it and re-test before delivery. The new combination shot right at a ¼” at 100 yards


This taught me a very important lesson. Never test fire a new rifle or barrel with an un-proven scope. I have read about this many times on this board but until it happed to me, I was skeptical, I am now a believer!

Nic
 
Great info as usual folks.

The scope shot well on his other piece, but we will swap it out for another, easy check. Also, I'll have him call the factory, but we swapped the stock, and I'm not sure how they will respond to that...will tell them that was an attempt to make it shoot.

The crown has no nicks, but that doesn't mean much. I can recrown easily when I check runout and the throat.
 
1.5moa must be the barrel, nothing else can cause such a disaster assuming you checked the basics. If your doing work for your buddy, you can touch up the chamber and cut off some of the muzzle and try that. Not much cost to it depending on how good a buddy he is ;) Otherwise, they will shoot with any 700 out there if given the same treatment.
 
I bought a Stevens recently

which is the lo end of the Savage line I believe. I bought it on the strength of reports from someone I know of who has one that is a "Tack Driver". Well, mine ain't or it isn't good enough to suit me. I looked at the barrel with my hawkeye and could see WHY! The barrel looks like it was rifled with a chisel. It has transverse chatter marks on both the lands and groves about the entire length of the barrel! I am surprised it shoots as well as it does, actually.

I have considered contacting Savage to ask if they would change out the barrel on it but haven't as yet. Think they would be concerned enough to do something?
 
My factory Savage 308 barrel was a copper collector. Put a used Kreiger on it with no nut, and built a Palma rifle with it. Cleaned the 800 and 900 yd targets with it(once or twice---don't ask about the 1K stage).
 
Sometimes it's the tube

Riflemeister said:
Most Savage rifles I've seen have been decent shooting rifles, but not all. My brother-in-law was looking for a good prairie dog rifle in 223 and I steered him to the Savage stainless, fluted, laminated stock, accutrigger, with the single shot action. I borescoped the barrel when it came in and it was a little rougher than I expected, so I told him to spend some time on the break-in. The best it would do was about 3/4" 5 shot groups and always loaded up with copper.
After pillar bedding, it maintained zero better, but was not significantly more accurate. He finally got fed up and had me fit a stainless 12" twist heavy Krieger. I eliminated the barrel nut, filled the magazine mortise and rebedded the gun. I kept asking him how it was shooting and he would just look sad and say he thought I should shoot it. I finally was at the range when he was and sat down and fired a 5 shot group off my Wichita rest and on shot number 4, the crosshair just started to move low and right as the shot broke and I called it. When we pulled the target he had a .235" 5 shot group with 4 shots about .125". I asked him if it shot like that all the time and he just grinned at me.
Long story to say I would definitely rebarrel that Savage.
Click to expand...

Similar story..... Remember, 3/4 MOA with reasonable consistency is fine accuracy for a factory rifle... Any brand.

IMOP...
For ANY kinda consistent < 3/4 not to mention < 1/2 consistent accuracy ALL aspects of the gun/load/shooting equiptment AND shooter must be "ON"...!
< Consistent 1/2 moa absolutly requires wind flags... No if's and's or but's... Even in the "it was 7:00am and no wind" stuff.....

Many years ago I got a Mod 12 in .308 and it was a a bit of a dog.... My BVSS 12 22-250 did MUCH better.... looked it over through and through... Swapped the 22-250 to the 12 .308 gun and ...... Little holes..! Beauty of a Savage barrel nut..!
Knew it was the barrel..! The barrel looked typical, actually it was "cleaner" in the bore than many..... Got a retired 6ppc Shilen and rechambered it in 6BR for the Mod 12 and Oh it's like <.250's when I'm ON ... Otherwise it's < 1/2 MOA >most of the day<:D Sometimes them tubes is just not right..No matter what.
That ole .308 tube is a great tomato stake these days.:D

On the other hand, I have seen several Savage .308 SS and CM shoot.. I mean SHOOT..!

cale
 
Pete Wass said:
which is the lo end of the Savage line I believe. I bought it on the strength of reports from someone I know of who has one that is a "Tack Driver". Well, mine ain't or it isn't good enough to suit me. I looked at the barrel with my hawkeye and could see WHY! The barrel looks like it was rifled with a chisel. It has transverse chatter marks on both the lands and groves about the entire length of the barrel! I am surprised it shoots as well as it does, actually.

I have considered contacting Savage to ask if they would change out the barrel on it but haven't as yet. Think they would be concerned enough to do something?
Click to expand...

I guess it's just a crap shoot. My friend Nathan in TX had a savage ss 25-06 he sold to another friend, and that thing shoots hole over, I was really impressed.

I'll swap out the scope and try that...then, the bbl is coming off.

Ben
 
Ben; Just curious. How did the barrel look / indicate when you set it up? Particularly re. the indication of the bore vs. the chamber? I've got a couple of folks here who are having interesting times with a couple of Savages, and I would be interested in what you find out.

Also, has anyone considered truing / facing the receiver and nut? Might it be worth it to make a receiver turning mandrel?
 
Crow99 said:
Ben; Just curious. How did the barrel look / indicate when you set it up? Particularly re. the indication of the bore vs. the chamber? I've got a couple of folks here who are having interesting times with a couple of Savages, and I would be interested in what you find out.

Also, has anyone considered truing / facing the receiver and nut? Might it be worth it to make a receiver turning mandrel?
Click to expand...

I have a Model 12 LRPV in .22-250 with a 9" twist. When new it would shoot 5 shots into one slightly larger than a caliber hole at 100 yards. I won the first two ground hog shoots I entered in factory class and out scored some light custom rifles.

It has deteriorated over 2500 rounds to shooting between 1/2" and 3/4" groups. And the crown has a bit of a ding on it which I'll fix. Plenty good for hunting but not so much for target shooting.

One of the reasons for getting set up to do my own chambering and crowning is that I'm planning to set it back a turn or two and rechamber it for .22-250, touch up the crown, and skim bed it. I'll let ya know how that works. I'm hoping it gets it back to shooting as well as it used to.

The finish in the chamber is a bit rough resulting in poor brass life due to thinning right above where the base transitions to side wall. After reading Varmint Al's analysis of the situation, I'm hoping that by polishing the chamber to as shiny as it is practical to get it, I'll reduce that.

I'm also planning to chamber a barrel in .243Win for it. The .243 barrel will be done with out the nut.

Fitch
 
Fitch... If you've got 2500 rounds through the barrel, you might want to scope it first to see if there's anything in the first several inches that will be worth cleaning up. I recently had two barrels come in for "setback and rechambering" that had been fired several hundred rounds with 6mm / 284. The nearest I can describe the interiors would be to refer to one of the familiar cutaway pics of a burned out machinegun barrel. This could NOT be determined from just looking down the barrel, it needed a borescope. I set one back an inch and rechambered because the customer insisted. Told him it wouldn't shoot and it didn't. He decided on a new barrel for the second job.

Oh, and brass thinning at the base / sidewall junction could likely be due to case stretching from FL sizing. If the case extracts ok, the chamber probably isn't too "rough."

And pardon my asking, but what did your dissertation above have to do with the questions I asked in the passage of mine that you quoted?
 
Crow99 said:
Fitch... If you've got 2500 rounds through the barrel, you might want to scope it first to see if there's anything in the first several inches that will be worth cleaning up.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'll have a buddy of mine with a scope take a look at it.

Oh, and brass thinning at the base / sidewall junction could likely be due to case stretching from FL sizing. If the case extracts ok, the chamber probably isn't too "rough."
Click to expand...

You may be right. I was neck sizing until a second .22-250 showed up with my brother in law. We did some load development which lead to FL sizing for part of the summer.

And pardon my asking, but what did your dissertation above have to do with the questions I asked in the passage of mine that you quoted?
Click to expand...

Not much. :eek:

Fitch
 
Crow99 said:
Ben; Just curious. How did the barrel look / indicate when you set it up? Particularly re. the indication of the bore vs. the chamber? I've got a couple of folks here who are having interesting times with a couple of Savages, and I would be interested in what you find out.

Also, has anyone considered truing / facing the receiver and nut? Might it be worth it to make a receiver turning mandrel?
Click to expand...

I haven't got that far yet...I just put another scope on it this morning and will put it on the bench this afternoon. Wind is very light today. 25 degrees.

On an interesting note, Mike gave me some history on the scope. Apparently he could not get a 25-06 to shoot either, and this was the same scope.


I will feedback from shooting this afternoon.

Ben
 
Re barrel it

I had a Savage varmint rifle in 223 that just wouldn't shoot. I restocked it, re crowned it, bedded it and it still shot poorly about 1 inch groups. Finally out of desparation I ran some action lapping grinding compound through the barrell to either smooth it out or finally kill it. 10-12 strokes with the lapping compound then I followed up with jb bore paste. A trip to the range showed groups shrunk to about 1/2 inch I was surprised. I do not recommend doing this procedure but in my case I was going to re barrel it anyway. I did replace the barrel with a new Sheilen screw on and the Savage now shoots tiny groups with no other changes, basically one holers, if I do my job.
So I would say re barrel it and have fun!
 
It was not the scope.

I just put 20 rounds through it with another scope. Shot 1.5" groups with hornady and 1" groups with SMK's.

Barrel is coming off.

Ben
 
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