Action raceway cutting again........

T

Tony Z

Member
Some weeks back, one of our members posted a thread about barrel steel choices and methods of action construction. Well since i have been evaluating the costs associated with action manufacture, i recently came to the most often asked hurdle of cutting raceways in action recievers. In the past i have done them in a shaper with a single point cutter and with time and experience could cut a steel reciever raceway in about half an hour a side after the bore was reamed and honed to gauge size. In alloy, it is about half that time.

Well just recently i came across the water jet cutters for a second time. Quite a few years back, i saw the value of these CNC cutters and their total stress and heat free process. But they were limited in the area of thickness and flare control at the extreme end of that thickness of material being cut. The other day i had a fellow walk in off the street showboating his new CNC water jet cutter. Like usual i asked how much and how thick and what type of material and to what accuracy and precision. Well in general terms and with the right caborundum grit, the accuracy i was told of is astounding. Half a thou sort of accuracy in most materials to about an inch thick, one thou to about two inches. So basically any scope rings i wanted duplicated for a fraction of the cost otherwise, can be cut in alloy, stainless and moly steels wih zero distortion and would require just a clean up and drill and tap to finish. Now the big question was how thick and what accuracy can you do steel to? He says 12 inches thick plate can be cut to an accuracy of about 20 thou. Now i reckon he is full of crap and then produces an eight inch thick bull gear cut out of EN36 for an overhead crane drive. It was a gear cut from a slab and was as perfect as it needed to be right down to the pressure angle on the teeth. Even the bore was cut with the keyway in it but just needed a clean up to be of a proper interferance fit. Sprockets he had samples of were no better or worse than laser cut ones i had used in the past.
I'm going to build a jig to hold an action sleeve square to the cutter nozzle and give him a go at duplicating Rem 700 raceways after i bore the blank. The machine needs an edge or hole to start cutting and i have been assured this is a walk in the park. We will see.

Tony Z.
 
For what its worth: Mauser type actions were broached on bulldozer presses. The money was in the cutters which were very long.
 
It is not even close to the accuracy and finish as wire EDM. The prices that I have been quoted for similar jobs are not any cheaper.
Butch
 
I would definately go with a wire EDM. You need a start hole through the blank. I would drill a 1/8" hole pretty close to where the wire path will start. The cutting with a wire is usually priced per square inch of metal actually cut.If you drill the hole on center then you are going to pay for cutting that is actually dead-air time. I would have them to fuzz-cut the wire path to get any small amount of taper out of the bolt dia. and the raceways. We're talking a finished boltway coming off the machine.

Mike Swartz
 
Got a question.

As easy as it is to deep hole drill and ream the bore of an action why would you pay to wire EDM out that material? I would think you would only do the lug ways. Tolerences there aren't that critical. Same goes for using a water jet.

Dave
 
Dave,

You still have to drill before you wire cut. Like you say tho, the raceways are just holes, so tolerance isn't really that important. 10-12 though might be too much variation to get a good fit on the lugs without having them bind up at places down the hole somewhere.

When I've made mine, I've begun by using a centerdrill, then a hand sharpened twist drill, and my actions that are from 7.750 long up through 9", have never had a drill lead off center in the material .001 (yet). I then ream, and they're beautiful. Well, they're straight anyhow! Hehe. I've had a few that the drill kinda boogered up and there's drill marks in pretty bad.

I suppose if you get the water cutting for free, then making a tool that will act as a broach to even things out afterward is a nice way to go. EDM is ok as long as you're not the one paying the bill, but it definitely does a nice job.

Tony, If you can do the job on a shaper already, and in a half hour, why change methods?
 
4Mesh, i am looking to start making actions on a much larger scale than an occasional one off for myself. If this works out, i will get 50 to 100 cut ASAP. As for the cost, i must be missing something here as the quotes i have been given are a fraction of what it would be with an EDM. The EDM is simply just not an option unless we are talking 3 dimensions, but with two dimensions the water jet is far ahead as far as cost and speed goes. Each raceway i have been told will be cut in less than a minute. I'm not counting my chickens just yet and will not believe until i see the unit in my hand. This is a million dollar machine set up for the mining industry which is just huge in our area, so time for access is limited. When the test run comes off and is successful, i will get in while i can and let the units sit in storage until the rest gets organised.
There is just no way anyone could justify buying such a unit for this sort of thing, but with it sitting 500 yards down the road, i would be dumb not to take advantage of it.
Which ever way it goes i will post some pics of the success or failure on the test run.

Tony Z.
 
Bolt Raceways

Hi,

I'm new to the forum and wanted to share some info I have on this topic. I had 3 blanks wire EDM cut out of 17-4 stainless for a 50 BMG project. These blanks were just under 12" long and prehardened. I wanted to have the entire profile cut but my concern was the mount of taper that it might have in the middle of the blank.

I received my blanks and I was very happy with the outcome. The finish and accuracy was superb. I ran a piece of rod that was the size of the bolt down the bore and it slides like it's on glass. Also what is nice about this process is that you can make the profile any shape you want without having to worry about how to cut it. If you wanted 3 lugs just draw it up and they program the profile. I didn't even drill the starting hole the company I had do the work had an EDM dill too and the put a .060 hole through it for almost cheaper then I could get it ready to go in my own lathe. They also said the smaller the hole the better because it keeps the flushing fluid more concentrated on the wire.

I have yet to complete my first action yet because of other projects getting in the way but I hope to get working on it again in the future.

John
 
Wire EDM

G'day All

Without a doubt wire EDM is the most accurate and arguably the best way to cut raceways. Especialy if they are to be cut after heat treatment.
Trouble is like Tony says that it's DAMM EXPENCIVE. At least here in Australia it is.. The cheepest quote i could get to cut raceways in Brisbane was arround $650 per action! Add another $150 to that and i can buy a new Remington rifle straight off the shelf!.
If you owned a CNC wire cutter then no problem, all you pay for is wire and electricity, but then the cost of a CNC wire cutter is well out of reach for most industrial machine shops let alone a small gunsmithing buisness..
Most shops with EDM will charge about $100 per hour of machine time.
For good accuracy on a 200mm thick workpiece they need at least 3-4 passes at a cutting speed of only 0.2mm (0.008') per minute, you can see how they arrive at a $650 quote..

Tony i'll be very interested to see how the water cutting comes out.. 20 thow of kerf at the bottom of the cut is a lot though. Might need to be cleaned up with the slotter/broach.

I did away with the raceways and went for the "Fat Bolt" design.
Drawings for my design are done and i will get to making some swarf very soon.. :D

Cheers
Leeroy
 
quickest or best way...

If memory serves me correctly Winchester pushed a broach through the drilled model 70 action in about 30 seconds and it was done. The they were then hand lapped. Technology changes and Wire EDM most likely is the more popular method available. Since jobs are shipped from vendor to vendor one would think there may be several options. In a small shop I would think a shaper would be the least expensive method. A drilled action could be cut in about 10-30 passes then rotated and the process repeated. It would also need to be hand lapped.

A broach and a shaper would require the work be done before heat treating.
A wire EDM could be used after heat treating.

A broaching machine, and an Wire EDM are costly machines. One can buy a "obsolete" shaper for a couple thousand dollars. All the machines would be space hogs in a small shop.

Rustystud
 
A couple of action builders that I know made a deal with a broaching company. If you commit to 60-100 receivers, you can get a custom broach ground and the broach pulled (yes, pulled) through the blanks for a pretty reasonable price per unit. Just another method to consider.
If I recall correctly, an article in PS, maybe 10-12 years ago, went into detail on how Nesika actions were built. The receivers were set up on a rotating fixture in a WEDM that had 8 units on the perimeter. It ran automatically, overnight, and they were done when the lights were turned on the next morning. That would be 2 hours maximum, per unit.
Newer WEDM units have gotten a lot more efficient and accurate than they wre 10 years ago. A big shop with several machines might be able to give you a competitive price for a very nice finished job.
But, raceways are really just clearance, as Dave T. pointed out.
 
Hey,

I just found the receipt for the blanks I had EDM cut and it was $270 each for a blank that was 12" long. This price was for 3 pieces and they were prehardened with no starting hole. They put the hole in it and cut the profile so it is ready to go right out of the box.

For that price I thought it was very reasonable, the time involved doing that myself on manual machines would way more. I also got a nice little radius on the corners where the bore meets the lugs and the overall finish is great.

I'm not sure what the cost would be for 50-100 pieces but I would think it would be cheaper at that quantity, especially if the shop could set them up to run at night.

John
 
Nat,
Shapers are available for just a few hundred dollars and in some cases they are available to just carry off to get them out of the way.
Butch
 
Shaper

Butch:

I got an 11" Atlas Shaper in mint condition for $500.00. But I thought I was quite lucky. I rarely use it but when I do it is on something I can't do with my vertical mill. I think it would take me an hour per action to cut the race ways. If I made a jig it might go faster. Set up would be more timely than cutting the race ways. I thought the Wentworth Mausers were cut on shaper.

Nat
 
I had a nice Atlas and sold it to a Buddy. He has since bought a larger one. He has actually made quite a few things with his. His new one is a Steptoe and it is a HD machine.
I do have some broaches that may be for receiver raceways. I need to check them out next time that I remember too when I am in the shop. I would part with them for a reasonable amount of money as I will probably never make a receiver. If I did I would have it wired.
Butch
 
How do the current maker do theirs?

I know Jerry Stiller advertises that his are done by Wire EDM.

Maybe Jim at Kelblys', Jim ar Bordons', John at Pierces', Barney at Lawton, and Glen Phoenix will step up and explain their processes.

Rustystud
 
wondering

are the raceways that critical?long as the bore is central to the threads all is square and aligned .I cant see a few thou slop in the raceways doing anything?What effect do they have on the shooting performance?:confused:
 
The hole

to raceway tolerance is critical if you want the bolt to run smooth in the bore and not bump when crossing the ports etc. I am real skeptical about the water jet, but who knows. We wire the whole thing in about 5 hours per action. We now run 2 wires 24/7. The cross section to wire is also critical as the design changes in that point make the action run smoother also. I dont want to speak for anyone, but from what I have determined by looking at the actions, Kelblys are shaped, Bordens are wired, Lawton is broached and Glens are wired. If I am wrong please correct me. Someone said that Phoenix may be moving again? Anything true to that?
 
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