A Synopsis on the Score Discussions.

I guess I'm the oddball here....

I guess I'm the oddball here because I'd rather have 5 shots in a 1" circle than 4 in the very center and 1 shot 2" out. Must be the hunter in me. Anyone else with me?
 
Tony,
I'd agree with you. Your shots would mean 5 in the 10 ring @ 200 yards. The other way would mean you dropped a point. It's not all about pin point accuracy, it's partly about avoiding mistakes.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
Tony,
I'd agree with you. Your shots would mean 5 in the 10 ring @ 200 yards. The other way would mean you dropped a point. It's not all about pin point accuracy, it's partly about avoiding mistakes.

Rick
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Well said Rick.

Dan Honert:)
 
Given good equipment and a decent shooter....I'd say it's all about doing away with mistakes. Think about it. If you shoot well enough to just stay clean at 200, you shot a .6246 MOA group. Plenty can do better, but that ain't bad for 200.....at the worst! I think I have that right and correct me if I'm wrong. That's group size minus .308 divided by 2 x1.047. Is that right? :confused:. I see a lot of groups at 200 , in reports that are worse than that and suspect that they too made a mistake of some sort.--Mike
 
mwezell said:
Given good equipment and a decent shooter....I'd say it's all about doing away with mistakes. Think about it. If you shoot well enough to just stay clean at 200, you shot a .6246 MOA group. Plenty can do better, but that ain't bad for 200.....at the worst! I think I have that right and correct me if I'm wrong. That's group size minus .308 divided by 2 x1.047. Is that right? :confused:. I see a lot of groups at 200 , in reports that are worse than that and suspect that they too made a mistake of some sort.--Mike
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the problem with the three of you is that THIS IS NOT about group. it was a discussion about score and alternatives to the current score rules. it never was about group.........
 
Mike

It all depends on conditions. Wheter we admitt it or not, Benchrest Shooters are still at the mercy of the conditions you are forced to shoot in.

There are times when a shooter can win a yardage if he just keeps all five groups under 1 inch. Then, there are times that it takes five actual measured groups to be less than .400 to win a yardage.

It is no different in score. If you plant a shot just touching on the left side of the moth ball, and then one just touching the right side, that is a one inch+ group. But, they are both scored as a 10.

In fact, if a shooter puts five shots inside the moth ball, and just misses the X with all five, he gets no more credit. They are all still "10's".

Most will say, "well, that's the rules, live with it". Well, the NBRSA has a chance to start fresh, with a new Discipline, new Format, and if the majority sees fit, a new scoring system. Let's seewhat happens........jackie
 
mike in co said:
the problem with the three of you is that THIS IS NOT about group. it was a discussion about score and alternatives to the current score rules. it never was about group.........
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Yes,why don't we change the scoring to score the worst edge,they would bring the .17's ,20 and 22 cal's back
 
jackie schmidt said:
It all depends on conditions. Wheter we admitt it or not, Benchrest Shooters are still at the mercy of the conditions you are forced to shoot in.

It is no different in score. If you plant a shot just touching on the left side of the moth ball, and then one just touching the right side, that is a one inch+ group. But, they are both scored as a 10.

In fact, if a shooter puts five shots inside the moth ball, and just misses the X with all five, he gets no more credit. They are all still "10's".
Click to expand...

It's no different with your center measure unless you do Degree's/ minutes / seconds around the Ten Ring.

How are you planning to score the five targets and Matches ?

Jerry :confused:
 
My last try on this point

Please Someone figure out how to score by overlay or something that gauges the middle of the shot rather then the best or worst edge..This aint group we know that and it aint muzzleloading either but I can tell you this much,Muzzleloading match's are scored from the center of the fired shot,perhaps because a 32 cal is much smaller then a 54 cal,or better yet a 68 cal,at any rate after attending seven muzzleloader match's this spring and summer i heard no scoring arguments of any kind...I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but I would be willing to bet that there has been muzzleloading match's going on for just a few "100" years longer then Benchrest Match's of either score or group....LW
 
Maybe add more resolution around the center of the target???

Maybe a compromise of thoughts would be to add more resolution around the center of the target.

Add a couple of rings inside the current 9 ring. If the current 9 ring location became a 7 and you had additional rings inside that for 8, 9, 10, and a very small "x", you are requiring a shooter to shoot closer to the center for a clean score, and any that drift out a small amount will drop points that wouldn't under the current system.

You could take that idea to any degree by putting as many score rings as you wanted within a given diameter, but simple is better I would think.

I would also keep it simple by using best edge to score that target.
 
moore said:
Please Someone figure out how to score by overlay or something that gauges the middle of the shot rather then the best or worst edge..This aint group we know that and it aint muzzleloading either but I can tell you this much,Muzzleloading match's are scored from the center of the fired shot,perhaps because a 32 cal is much smaller then a 54 cal,or better yet a 68 cal,at any rate after attending seven muzzleloader match's this spring and summer i heard no scoring arguments of any kind...I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but I would be willing to bet that there has been muzzleloading match's going on for just a few "100" years longer then Benchrest Match's of either score or group....LW
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no...because we are not shooting laser beams .0001 in dia. we are shooting bullets that have a dia, not just a point on the end. there are advantages and disadvantages to each caliber. you take your pick and live with it. center of hole is always proposed by the people shooting the lightest recoiling rifle...cause it is an advantage to them and no one else.
mike in co
 
moore said:
Please Someone figure out how to score by overlay or something that gauges the middle of the shot rather then the best or worst edge..This aint group we know that and it aint muzzleloading either but I can tell you this much,Muzzleloading match's are scored from the center of the fired shot,perhaps because a 32 cal is much smaller then a 54 cal,or better yet a 68 cal,at any rate after attending seven muzzleloader match's this spring and summer i heard no scoring arguments of any kind...I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but I would be willing to bet that there has been muzzleloading match's going on for just a few "100" years longer then Benchrest Match's of either score or group....LW
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it has been done. shown on the original thread....

mike in co
 
jackie schmidt said:
It is no different in score. If you plant a shot just touching on the left side of the moth ball, and then one just touching the right side, that is a one inch+ group. But, they are both scored as a 10.

In fact, if a shooter puts five shots inside the moth ball, and just misses the X with all five, he gets no more credit. They are all still "10's".

.jackie
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If you are referring to the IBS 100 yd target....I don't think those statements are correct.
In the first statement, the outside of the 10 ring measures .525..... .525 + whatever bullet diameter would not be 1 inch+-----.768 " for 6mm/.833" for 30 cal.

In the 2nd statement, the gap between the OD of the dot and the OD of the 10 ring is ~.230, therefore it is possible for a 22 cal to not get an X, but the 6 would and the 30 would get a WO.

If your talking about the 200 yd target.............Nevermind.
 
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Tbkahuna said:
Maybe a compromise of thoughts would be to add more resolution around the center of the target.

Add a couple of rings inside the current 9 ring. If the current 9 ring location became a 7 and you had additional rings inside that for 8, 9, 10, and a very small "x", you are requiring a shooter to shoot closer to the center for a clean score, and any that drift out a small amount will drop points that wouldn't under the current system.

You could take that idea to any degree by putting as many score rings as you wanted within a given diameter, but simple is better I would think.

I would also keep it simple by using best edge to score that target.
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I believe this would turn into a scorers nightmare......it would require the reticle or plug for darn near every target.
 
mike in co said:
the problem with the three of you is that THIS IS NOT about group. it was a discussion about score and alternatives to the current score rules. it never was about group.........
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Mike, We completely agree on that. I was making a point to another poster.--Mike
 
Shooting for score

is simply can you or can you not hit a given size circle. It's not about who hits closest to the center. The 6PPC is supposed to be the best when it comes to group. If a 30 can score better, then it should have the right to do so. We have to put up with added recoil. If i shoot at a deer with a 22, and shoot over its back by .25", then I have simply missed. Had I been shooting an 8" projectile, the deer would be dead. I see no reason to complicate matters. You either shoot groups or you shoot score. It only takes a .3" agg. to shoot a 25X target with a 6mm bullet if you completely figure out the wind effect.

Michael
 
mturner said:
is simply can you or can you not hit a given size circle. It's not about who hits closest to the center. The 6PPC is supposed to be the best when it comes to group. If a 30 can score better, then it should have the right to do so. We have to put up with added recoil. If i shoot at a deer with a 22, and shoot over its back by .25", then I have simply missed. Had I been shooting an 8" projectile, the deer would be dead. I see no reason to complicate matters. You either shoot groups or you shoot score. It only takes a .3" agg. to shoot a 25X target with a 6mm bullet if you completely figure out the wind effect.

Michael
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WRONG
the current program by one organization, you are right,BUT this is about the other organization try to start a NEW match...and every thing is open...including jackie's original suggestion, which is pure accuracy, closet to the dot period.
try opening your mind, and quit being stagnent. have you ever looked up the definition of the word "change"....?
go read the original thread.

i do not understand the statements in this thread. jackie basically said, it will be just like the other side from him for his area. he has a thread for discussion of different proposals, but it just drags on here.

mike in co
 
I'm not an NBRSA member and don't shoot the short range centerfire score games (yet) so I speak here without standing. But I do shoot Larry Willis' Hickory Ground Hog Match which is scored worst edge and have shot various rimfire score games which are of course scored best edge. The rimfire games are all shot with the same bullet diameter by default but the worst edge format of Larry's match includes a dimension of caliber strategy that adds much to the enjoyment and eliminates the gravitation to a single cartridge solution that some other games drive. Winning cartridges for that match include 308 Win to 223 Rem and just about everything in between. I don't have skin in the game but I offer the opinion that a worst edge scoring system adds something to the game without adding any more time, difficulty or possibility for error than a best edge system.

My two cents.

Greg
 
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Most of this seems focused on the 100 yd target, 250-25x although not in every match does happen. Any National competition would be made of
multiple yardages and I have never heard of 250 and 25x's at 200. I
doub't that anyone is concerned with 250-25x's at 300.
 
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