A real reason to shoot moly....
- Thread starter alinwa
- Start date
M
mike in co
Guest
yep, for some reason, unknown to me, moly bullets print nice crisp round holes.
mike in co
mike in co
John Kielly
Shari's fan club
Does it cause a carbon ring?
M
mike in co
Guest
no but he does have to treat the throat area with white out every 80 shots or so...........
J
J. Pendergraft
Guest
German
German,
Some moly users like myself have not been as faithful. I never had anything against moly but wasn't sure it was worth the effort to coat them. I had a lot of success shooting moly 142 MK's in a 6.5. I shot alot of the in the AR-15 as well, could go forever almost in the 223 AR-15 without cleaning. I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and what you believe to be the pros and cons if any, also if you have tried any of the other coatings.
Thanks,
Joel
German,
Some moly users like myself have not been as faithful. I never had anything against moly but wasn't sure it was worth the effort to coat them. I had a lot of success shooting moly 142 MK's in a 6.5. I shot alot of the in the AR-15 as well, could go forever almost in the 223 AR-15 without cleaning. I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and what you believe to be the pros and cons if any, also if you have tried any of the other coatings.
Thanks,
Joel
Butch Lambert
Active member
German,
You are a little bit of a comedian yourself.
Butch
You are a little bit of a comedian yourself.
Butch
I haven't used Moly bullets exclusively (say 50% of the time) and feel the same as German does to them.
All the "horror stories" and "cleaning warnings" have never showed up in my +10 years of shooting them.
No extra conditioning or extra process' here. Just shoot them and clean as normal is how I go with them. Advantage being the lack of needing to clean as soon.
German -- your "all in the black" comment is great stuff to !!! -- ROFLMAO
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
All the "horror stories" and "cleaning warnings" have never showed up in my +10 years of shooting them.
No extra conditioning or extra process' here. Just shoot them and clean as normal is how I go with them. Advantage being the lack of needing to clean as soon.
German -- your "all in the black" comment is great stuff to !!! -- ROFLMAO
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
OHhhhhh German, you FUNNY GUY eh 
In the game I'm shooting we have a little BLUE area in a vast field of white.......and the whole FIELD is about the size of your black!
LOL
I too am "moly neutral" I've probably got mixed lots totaling a couple thousand molied bullets kicking about..... I'll use them up sometime. And even order more if that's all they have. I even SWITCH!!! In the same BARREL!!
al
In the game I'm shooting we have a little BLUE area in a vast field of white.......and the whole FIELD is about the size of your black!
LOL
I too am "moly neutral" I've probably got mixed lots totaling a couple thousand molied bullets kicking about..... I'll use them up sometime. And even order more if that's all they have. I even SWITCH!!! In the same BARREL!!
al
M
mike in co
Guest
i have heard of shooters playing head games to fluster thier competitors. this has got to be what al is doing, using a marker to "moly" his bullets. convincing his felllow shooters that he has gone over to the dark side. leaving them question thier decisions. sneaky guy that al person.
all but one of my jacketed bullet rifles get moly bullets...and there are over 40 rifles.
mike in co
all but one of my jacketed bullet rifles get moly bullets...and there are over 40 rifles.
mike in co
R. G. Robinett
New member
As usual, I'm late to the dance!
How about a barrel (6mm from a pedigreed maker) which, with the exception of the LAPUA 105 Scenar, produces 100% bullet failures with all of the "bare" 105-108 Gr. bullets - Sierra, Berger, various customs, but only a one-in-ten failure rate with [the same] moly-coated bullets! While not a CURE, this does amount to "cheap" insurance - even with barrels from the same maker (and other manufacturers too) , which do not destroy the same bare bullets!
The barrel in question destroys EVERY bare bullet (except the above noted exception) before the bullets reach the 100 Yd. berm - the jackets simply peel off and can be found laying on the ground about 50-60 Yd. in front of the muzzle - similar to shotgun wads! This is at any MV in excess of 2850 FPS. Another barrel, from the same Mfgr., same rifling profile/groove count, etc., chambered with the same reamer (a long-necked 6/250 Ackley Imp.), using the same components, at the same session, will shoot the bullets at 3100+ FPS without a failure . . . BUT, having witnessed the "improvement" ( from 100% failure to 10% failure) with the bullet wrecker barrel, I would NEVER again shoot bare bullets through a small diameter, conventionally configured, rifle barrel, where said bullets requires a twist rate faster than 1:10". RG
P.S. Here's a link to a pic and brief description of a couple of "recovered" jackets . . . http://www.bench-talk.com/photos/r_g_robinett/picture1401.aspx
How about a barrel (6mm from a pedigreed maker) which, with the exception of the LAPUA 105 Scenar, produces 100% bullet failures with all of the "bare" 105-108 Gr. bullets - Sierra, Berger, various customs, but only a one-in-ten failure rate with [the same] moly-coated bullets!
While not a CURE, this does amount to "cheap" insurance - even with barrels from the same maker (and other manufacturers too) , which do not destroy the same bare bullets! The barrel in question destroys EVERY bare bullet (except the above noted exception) before the bullets reach the 100 Yd. berm - the jackets simply peel off and can be found laying on the ground about 50-60 Yd. in front of the muzzle - similar to shotgun wads!
This is at any MV in excess of 2850 FPS. Another barrel, from the same Mfgr., same rifling profile/groove count, etc., chambered with the same reamer (a long-necked 6/250 Ackley Imp.), using the same components, at the same session, will shoot the bullets at 3100+ FPS without a failure . . . BUT, having witnessed the "improvement" ( from 100% failure to 10% failure) with the bullet wrecker barrel, I would NEVER again shoot bare bullets through a small diameter, conventionally configured, rifle barrel, where said bullets requires a twist rate faster than 1:10". RGP.S. Here's a link to a pic and brief description of a couple of "recovered" jackets . . . http://www.bench-talk.com/photos/r_g_robinett/picture1401.aspx
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R. G. Robinett
New member
Lynn, those grooves were cut by the rifling - as they "peel" the wind IMPACT distorts the jackets into some very interesting forms - the best of spatial relations skills can go sour!
What you see, other than the land engravement marks, is due to distortion - reshaping. The complete "nose-cone" was, thus far, a one of a kind find. The "peening" around the meplat is most INTERESTING - the unfired bullets did NOT exhibit it!
Somewhere, I have a pic of a 105 Gr. Berger VLD, fired through this barrel, which though wildly distorted, is COMPLETELY intact - right down to the BT base hanging [by a shard] from the mangled jacket. Upon initial inspection of THAT jacket, which was laying on the grass, about 50 Yd. in front of the rifle, appears to have been recovered from the berm - one of those bullets which, upon impact, completely shed the core . . except, the only "impact" was air resistance!
Once it is analyzed, it becomes obvious that the jacket peeled off the core in a more or less, spiral fassion, then was "flattened" by the air impact . . . "squaring" the base to the axis and winding the jacket around a core, would result in forming a bullet shape.Unless they impact a chunk of ice, or, a small rock or other similar particle in the snow, bullets recovered from [snow] dirfts exhibit ZERO distortion - well, except for the land engravement tracks.
I have used moly-coated bullets almost exclusively since the fad began - Dan got me hooked - I have yet to experience a negative attribute. For the last several seasons, I have been shooting entire Grand Aggregates without cleaning . . . and, yes, once in a while, I win some fake wood, and even set the current IBS TWO Gun Score Record (combined Grand AGGs with Hunter and VfS), shooting a pair of un-cleaned thirty caliber rifles.
Dan may have been difficult to "read", but he certainly knew his stuff and was a very competent competitor. RG
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Method of rifling and rifling type
Randy
Without disclosing the maker was this a cut or button barrel?
Was it 5R, 5C, Canted, or straight walled rifling?
After bore scoping this barrel did you find any imperfections?
I saw a nationally ranked shooter on his way to a clean 200 with 18 plus Xs at a 1000 yards have a 105 Berger Blow up at about 80 yards from the muzzle.
It happens and often cann't be explained.
Nat Lambeth
Randy
Without disclosing the maker was this a cut or button barrel?
Was it 5R, 5C, Canted, or straight walled rifling?
After bore scoping this barrel did you find any imperfections?
I saw a nationally ranked shooter on his way to a clean 200 with 18 plus Xs at a 1000 yards have a 105 Berger Blow up at about 80 yards from the muzzle.
It happens and often cann't be explained.
Nat Lambeth
R. G. Robinett
New member
Nat, this is a conventional ("straight walled"), button rifled barrel. The bore-scope reveals nothing out of the ordinary - the barrel looks quite nice. It does have an extremely TIGHT bore - chambering required the smallest bushing in my pilot set - a .235something . . . probably .2358". For my 108 Gr. FB bullets, tight-bore (.236") Krieger barrels are perfect bullet wreckers.
Last summer, during the IA State LV/HV Championships, just to prove a point, I ran my 121 Gr. FB bullets - LONG bearing surface - (moly-coated) through a Broughton 1:8" 5C barrel, chambered to 6MM DASHER - not a single failure from the 24" long barrel! Oh, and second place finishes at both yardages (100/200) and thrid in the GRAND - not a bad showing against a field of 68 Gr. spewing 6PPCs!
Chronographing the load (literally a "case-full" of IMR-4007) a week later revealed an average MV of 2820 FPS (old Oehler - but, as chronographs go,reliable). The load/cartridge defied all convention: prior to seating the bullets, the powder was level with the case mouth, whereupon, seating the bullet heavily compressed the powder until the FB rested below the neck-shoulder junction, at about mid-shoulder . . . it shot, "like a benchrest rifle" . . . People could not get their minds wraped around the fact that a 1:8" twist is ALL that is needed for this particular bullet - the typical 1:7 and 1:7.5" twist barrels invariably proved to be bullets wreckers: not my 1:8" twist Broughton 5C - but again, it's only 24" long!Enough rambling: especially with a questionable barrel, moly DOES help reduce or eliminates bullet failures. Based upon empirical testing and reports from customers over the last four years, I now believe that the various iterations of the Russian rifling profile - 5R;5C; canted, etc. - reduce or elininate bullet failures.
I believe that, for conventional rifling, whether cut or, buttoned, the primary difference between bullet wrecker barrels and tolerant barrels is the sharpness of the out-side corner on the driving side of the land. The stress riser, in combination with the transfer of heat, to the core, is the proverbial straw which breaks the back. Especially in 6MM barrels, tight bores exacerbate this - as a percentage, engraving the jacket 15% DEEPER than a conventional bore: for a .236" bore diameter, an engravement depth amounting to 19.4% of the jacket wall thickness, as opposed to 16% for a .237 bore . . . by what percentage is the tensile strength of the jacket reduced by these degrees of engravement; and how much more tensile errosin does the stress-riser impart?
Apply ample heat, and poof we've got, "a grey streak'!While I'm ranting and stealing Al's thread, for the most part, with cases up to the capacity of a 6HLS/6x47Lapua/6XC/etc., there is little point in having a barrel in excess of 24" long - I'd make an exception for sight radius on an iron-sight rig.
These relatively small cases only deliver about 10FPS or less for each inch of barrel - a 24" barrel is 20% shorter (yep,as compared to a 30" barrel, at least a 20% reduction in the heat from friction), deflects much less at the muzzle (more tunable/less velocity sensitive), and sacrifices a mere 50-60 FPS of MV . . . there's lots of gold to mine out there! Like Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin discovered in the movies, some of it falls between the cracks . . . RG
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to RG Robinett,
How many do you have on barrels less then 24" to the 600/1000 BENCHREST realms??????????
What might be the advantages of ++++++24" ??????? (like say a 31" over a 24)
In my opinion, "if you turn North on 2nd street but should actually be on 3rd, well at least your heading North..... "
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
How many do you have on barrels less then 24" to the 600/1000 BENCHREST realms??????????
What might be the advantages of ++++++24" ??????? (like say a 31" over a 24)
In my opinion, "if you turn North on 2nd street but should actually be on 3rd, well at least your heading North..... "
Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
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R. G. Robinett
New member
Donovan Moran, yep, yer still headed North and maybe third street ends up in a better palce.
My imagination often strays from the straight and narrow.With relatively small cases -again, Dashers, BR, BRX,6XC, etc. - the long barrels are simply not necessary to achieve near maximum velocities: each inch of barrel being worth about 8- 10 FPS. With these cartridges, LONG barrels are simply an artifact from the old days and "magnum" sized case capacities - they're what people think they must have.
Here's a link to an example of a HUGE capacity case, exploring barrel length and velocity - from Dan Lilja's web-site. To sumerize, He began with a .338/378 chambering, firing 300 Gr. Sierra (and some others) ahead of 110 Gr. of IMR 5010, through a 46" long barrel - from there to 24", the average FPS loss per inch was a mere 12.3 FPS!
To be straight-up, the FPS loss between 30" and 24" was a WHOPPING 23 FPS per inch . . . still not nearly as much as people believe, which typically would be 50 FPS+++. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/long_barrel_velocity.htm
Regarding muzzle deflection: it has everything to do with amplitude - the more it deflects, the greater the amplitude. The greater the amplitude, the greater the shot dispersion due to velocity variation - or, "tuning". Simply put, a shorter, stiffer barrel is both easier to tune AND less sensitive to velocity variations. Here's a link to a barrel rigidity article on Dan Lilja's web-site:http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/rigidity_benchrest_rifles.htm
"What might be the advantages of ++++++24" ??????? (like say a 31" over a 24)"
Other than conforming to convention, generating unnecssary heat, and "muzzle whip", I don't know.
Based upon tuning issues, heating issues, and the velocity issue, especially for small capacity 6MM chamberings, I can't see any advantage in opting for a barrel much over 24" long.
I may have to eat crow - but don't bet on it - I have some people working on this - yes, for 600 & 1K projects. RG"The world is filled with magnificent contributions, created by dysfunctional learners and undiciplined thinkers."
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R.G.Robinett
You don't have to worry about eating any crow as Bob Turner who many on this forum know shot a 6BR with great success at 24 or 26 inches in a standard benchrest stock using 4895 powder.
His thinking at the time was he wanted the gun to shoot just like a 6ppc so he went with the shorter barrel length.
I know somebody here will have his fps numbers due to the shorter barrel.From 28-32 inches the velocity gain is roughly 30 fps from my experience.
I built a Rem 600 with a sleeve on it and the barrel is 1.350 inches straight contour.To make lightgun with it(17 pounds) and a nightforce scope I had the barrel cut to 20-3/4 inches.It is down about 100 fps using my standard load and a 30 inch barrel.
Lynn
You don't have to worry about eating any crow as Bob Turner who many on this forum know shot a 6BR with great success at 24 or 26 inches in a standard benchrest stock using 4895 powder.
His thinking at the time was he wanted the gun to shoot just like a 6ppc so he went with the shorter barrel length.
I know somebody here will have his fps numbers due to the shorter barrel.From 28-32 inches the velocity gain is roughly 30 fps from my experience.
I built a Rem 600 with a sleeve on it and the barrel is 1.350 inches straight contour.To make lightgun with it(17 pounds) and a nightforce scope I had the barrel cut to 20-3/4 inches.It is down about 100 fps using my standard load and a 30 inch barrel.
Lynn
flatlander
New member
So far, the shortest bbl. on any of my BR/Dasher/6x47/6XCs is a 28" Bartlein 7.8-tw. in 6XC. The others are all std. or hvy Palma contours finished at 30". Some are used with iron sights; some are shot only with scopes. When I borescope them after mild initial cleaning, when I find copper fouling, invariably it's out in the last 3"-4" near the muzzle. Whether that's due to copper being vaporized off bullet bases at ignition, then being deposited on the bore as pressure drops nearer the muzzle, or because the moly coating has worn through by the end of the bullet's travel in these longer bbls., I don't know.
All my Kriegers are .236" bore, while the Bartleins are .237". Can't say that I've noticed any difference in the copper fouling pattern between the two bore sizes, nor have I lost a bullet out of any of them, regardless of bore dia.
None of these bbls. have slanted lands.
I'm moving away from moly/wax coating to boron nitride, partially because BN isn't as messy, partly because BN has supeior friction reducing properties, and partly because I'm tired of having to heat bullets & steel shot to get a smooth coat of wax after molying. The last batch of bullets I moly'd & waxed was over 5000, and it took several hours to finish the wax step. The current batch I'm working on is over 6000, and there's still one 500ct. box of moly'd DTAC 115s sitting there from the previous batch, waiting to be waxed. I won't miss the moly/waxing routine, but OTOH, I wouldn't be going through all the work if I didn't think it was worth it. Hope BN gives results at least as good as moly has.
All my Kriegers are .236" bore, while the Bartleins are .237". Can't say that I've noticed any difference in the copper fouling pattern between the two bore sizes, nor have I lost a bullet out of any of them, regardless of bore dia.
None of these bbls. have slanted lands.
I'm moving away from moly/wax coating to boron nitride, partially because BN isn't as messy, partly because BN has supeior friction reducing properties, and partly because I'm tired of having to heat bullets & steel shot to get a smooth coat of wax after molying. The last batch of bullets I moly'd & waxed was over 5000, and it took several hours to finish the wax step. The current batch I'm working on is over 6000, and there's still one 500ct. box of moly'd DTAC 115s sitting there from the previous batch, waiting to be waxed. I won't miss the moly/waxing routine, but OTOH, I wouldn't be going through all the work if I didn't think it was worth it. Hope BN gives results at least as good as moly has.
Rich De
Member
Just an add to.........Back around 2002 when Greg Sigmund started making his Clinch River bullets, I was probably one of his first customers shooting the 147 gr. 6.5 VLD. Actually that was the year I set the 1,000 yd. light gun group record (that Tom Sarver broke int 2007). In any event, I was moly coating those bullets. A number of shooters had complained of them "blowing up!". It was thought that cut rifling barrels might be the cause? To this day, I am still shooting Greg's bullets moly coated, and have not had one blowup in my Krieger barrels. I shoot them in both light and heavy gun.
Rich De
Rich De