A question about UBR

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
When UBR was formed, no the target system formulated, would' it have been better to reduce the target, rather than increase it.

22 caliber would be the standard 1/2 Bull and and 1/16 dot, and then the 6mm would be smaller by it's caliber difference, and the 30 would be even smaller by it's caliber advantage.

That would make the 30 caliber 10 ring around .400, and the "11" around .025, or there about.

Also, is their target system based on the bullet circles radius, or diameter. It looks like it is based on Diameter.

In edge scoring, shouldn't the actual difference be based on the radius?
 
jackie schmidt said:
When UBR was formed, no the target system formulated, would' it have been better to reduce the target, rather than increase it.

22 caliber would be the standard 1/2 Bull and and 1/16 dot, and then the 6mm would be smaller by it's caliber difference, and the 30 would be even smaller by it's caliber advantage.

That would make the 30 caliber 10 ring around .400, and the "11" around .025, or there about.

Also, is their target system based on the bullet circles radius, or diameter. It looks like it is based on Diameter.

In edge scoring, shouldn't the actual difference be based on the radius?
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http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets
I'll let Danny explain why he created what he did. The link will take you to the Target Page on the UBR site.

Rick
 
Rick, You know I shoot it and fully support it and I didnt even know that page was there.. Thanks for putting that up..And if folks think they can shoot .300 groups and get all the dots they better pray both luck and the wind are on their side........LW
 
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Reply to Jackie

Jackie I'll try to answer you so please bear with me as simple math causes me headaches. The target was designed on the .30 cal side simply because that was and is the go to cartridge in scoring formats. The size of rings was determined because I wanted just a little harder or challenging target.
Now with that said my idea of score shooting right or wrong is to hit the center, not just clip the dot, with the nose of the projectile. Everything is measured from center as best as limited capabilities are able to measure. From center only half of bullet diameter is used to increase the rings diameter with respect to the .308 as base unit, therefore smaller cals. must be increased. Yes it could have been done as you suggest with only differences in ring size as end result.
Once it happens that 25 wipeouts are achieved in IBS you can only determine the next step by measuring from center. UBR is already doing this as a score of 264 has been reached.
As to the sister thread near this one my preference is the 30BR for all my score attemps. I think it is the most accurate, consistent round to be had. I do not shoot it all the time simply because we always look for better do we not.
 
LW Moore said:
Rick, You know I shoot it and fully support it and I didnt even know that page was there.. Thanks for putting that up..And if folks think they can shoot .300 groups and get all the dots they better pray both luck and the wind are on their side........LW
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You are very welcome LW. .300 grouping rifles will win a few, but not many. Seems like luck and/or wind never favors me much. But, as I said on another thread, if you want to give me .65 on every bull I'll win a helluvalot more matches than I will lose.

Rick
 
In Group Shooting, the magic number is the "sub .200 Agg". Go to any BR Match. On any given day, only a handful of shooters will be at that level.

If someone did shoot 25 wipeouts, that doesn't mean that we should all pack our stuff up and say "that's that". I go to a lot of NBRSA VFS Matches, and just like in Group, the vast majority of Shooters at any Score Match are in no danger of shooting 25x's much less 25 wipeouts.

The point of my post was when UBR conceived the target, they should have made the 22 cal the 1/2 inch ten ring, and then made the 6mm and 30 progressively smaller.

I also disagree that Score Shooting is about hitting dead center. It's not. It's about hitting the best edge. The fact is, if you put a bullet dead center, it is worth no more than one that just kisses the 11 or the X. And if you just miss the X or 11 by .010 inch, it is worth no more than a bullet just listing the outside of the 10 ring by .001 inch.
 
Then perhaps its time to go to worst edge scoring , if its about hitting what your aiming at precisely instead of just nipping a 10 or 11. seems easy enough. that should open a can of worms. I personally like the U.B.R. targets and format.
 
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It is about hitting center, why do group shooters try to put the last four in the first one, accuracy starts in the middle and degenerates from there.
A zero group is the best you can do score shooting is group shooting on different bulls.
 
jackie schmidt said:
In Group Shooting, the magic number is the "sub .200 Agg". Go to any BR Match. On any given day, only a handful of shooters will be at that level.

If someone did shoot 25 wipeouts, that doesn't mean that we should all pack our stuff up and say "that's that". I go to a lot of NBRSA VFS Matches, and just like in Group, the vast majority of Shooters at any Score Match are in no danger of shooting 25x's much less 25 wipeouts.

The point of my post was when UBR conceived the target, they should have made the 22 cal the 1/2 inch ten ring, and then made the 6mm and 30 progressively smaller.

I also disagree that Score Shooting is about hitting dead center. It's not. It's about hitting the best edge. The fact is, if you put a bullet dead center, it is worth no more than one that just kisses the 11 or the X. And if you just miss the X or 11 by .010 inch, it is worth no more than a bullet just listing the outside of the 10 ring by .001 inch.
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I fail to see why UBR targets "should" be designed your way instead of the way they are. I've been shooting them for seven years and haven't see a problem. Also, I've been running matches for the same period and never heard that from any competitor. Why would your way be "better"?

I don't think I have ever tried to shoot anything but the center. Why would I try for anything else? Please explain.

Rick
 
jackie schmidt said:
In Group Shooting, the magic number is the "sub .200 Agg". Go to any BR Match. On any given day, only a handful of shooters will be at that level.

If someone did shoot 25 wipeouts, that doesn't mean that we should all pack our stuff up and say "that's that". I go to a lot of NBRSA VFS Matches, and just like in Group, the vast majority of Shooters at any Score Match are in no danger of shooting 25x's much less 25 wipeouts.

The point of my post was when UBR conceived the target, they should have made the 22 cal the 1/2 inch ten ring, and then made the 6mm and 30 progressively smaller.

I also disagree that Score Shooting is about hitting dead center. It's not. It's about hitting the best edge. The fact is, if you put a bullet dead center, it is worth no more than one that just kisses the 11 or the X. And if you just miss the X or 11 by .010 inch, it is worth no more than a bullet just listing the outside of the 10 ring by .001 inch.
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I may be misreading something but please look at this to make sure we're on the same page. It describes in detail, the targets and the history behind their design. Yes, I think it could've been made even harder but it's already a tougher target than the other sanctioning bodies use, were everyone using a 30. Using a smaller caliber makes the other's targets harder, if that's what you are wanting it to be. UBR makes it the same for all calibers.

This link explains it well.
http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets
 
Greyfox said:
I fail to see why UBR targets "should" be designed your way instead of the way they are. I've been shooting them for seven years and haven't see a problem. Also, I've been running matches for the same period and never heard that from any competitor. Why would your way be "better"?

I don't think I have ever tried to shoot anything but the center. Why would I try for anything else? Please explain.

Rick
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At 200 yards in tough conditions, I will usually hold a little extra just to grab some part of the 10 ring.

I guess it's the way I approach VFS. At 100, I shoot for X's, at 200, I shoot for 10's, collecting any X's that might come along.

This has been resonably successful for me. Keep the X count high at 100, stay clean at 200.

Of course, it all goes out the window if you drop a point.
 
jackie schmidt said:
At 200 yards in tough conditions, I will usually hold a little extra just to grab some part of the 10 ring.

I guess it's the way I approach VFS. At 100, I shoot for X's, at 200, I shoot for 10's, collecting any X's that might come along.

This has been resonably successful for me. Keep the X count high at 100, stay clean at 200.

Of course, it all goes out the window if you drop a point.
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OK, I knew we must be missing something here and now I see what it is. UBR scoring doesn't place an extra penalty for a "9". Total points are all that matters and the "X" counts as an "11". UBR shooters always shoot for the center. If one shoots for a "10" he will find himself in the middle of the pack or lower. "x's" are all that matters.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
OK, I knew we must be missing something here and now I see what it is. UBR scoring doesn't place an extra penalty for a "9". Total points are all that matters and the "X" counts as an "11". UBR shooters always shoot for the center. If one shoots for a "10" he will find himself in the middle of the pack or lower. "x's" are all that matters.

Rick
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Yes, this is a game changer at 200.

I too use to shoot for for 10's in IBS. In UBR, someone is probably just behind you and they're bearing down on 11's. It keeps the pressure on and there is no playing for "safe 10's".

The flip side is a 9 doesn't end you day. Much like group, if you shoot well the rest of the way, you can often overcome one bad shot.
 
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That's the difference between NBRSA/IBS VFS and UBR. A 249 24x gets beat by a 250 0x. Thos 24x's in UBR would be a whole bunch of "11's".

I would think that a shooter who tends to shoot high x counts would be pretty good at UBR.
 
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jackie schmidt said:
That's the difference between NBRSA/IBS VFS and UBR. A 249 24x gets beat by a 250 0x. Thos 24x's in UBR would be a whole bunch of "11's".
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Yes, in part. A perfect score for a yardage is 264(11possible points per bull, 6 bulls per target, 4 targets per yardage...., 66 is a perfect target so 66x4=264).

There have only been 3 264s shot and two of them were in back to back matches, by the same shooter. The latter one was at this year's nats.I shot a 263 :(.
Talk about having your stuff together when it matters....JR Rigsby had it together and earned it.

He has been on a tear for a few years and is working hard at doing it again next year.

He's always strong.
 
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Pretty Good might be an understatement,Its a game of hitting the dots. As already stated, if your not, your getting beat be it 100,200 or 300 yards..
 
jackie schmidt said:
That's the difference between NBRSA/IBS VFS and UBR. A 249 24x gets beat by a 250 0x. Thos 24x's in UBR would be a whole bunch of "11's".

I would think that a shooter who tends to shoot high x counts would be pretty good at UBR.
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Actually, there are three major differences. The 1st would be the caliber neutral target, making a level playing field for the 3 most popular benchrest calibers, .224, .243, & .308. 2nd- the different scoring. Some prefer the sudden death by shooting a 9, most UBR shooters wouldn't. 3rd-Four classes, which means that it's possible for a newby to show up with whatever he chooses to shoot and there is a class for him. It isn't necessary to have a high dollar setup to begin playing the game. Also, it doesn't take a different rifle to compete if you are already a group shooter. You can even drag an old bench rifle out of the safe. I compete in Modified Class with a rifle that is 50 years old. All these I see as reasons why we are growing. In my area (Middle TN/Southern KY) a majority of competitors did not leave another organization. They are new recruits.

Yes, high X counts produce wins. After all, that's what it's all about, hitting what you are aiming for.

Rick
 
Hunter said:
See posts 3 and 13 at http://benchrest.com/showthread.php...erfire-Benchrest-Matches-Schedule-and-Results.
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Post 3 was was a group report. Post 4 gives a UBR report but I didn't see where a 264 was shot. I did see where Bob Baker shot a perfect single target at 200. That's a big feat, a score of 66 out of a possible 66.

Post 13 shows that Bill Dittman indeed shot a 264 in June of 2017. If it held up, then I guess it's been done 4 times instead of three. Thanks for pointing that out.

edit---I thought River Bend matches were sanctioned but I don't see the results on the UBR site. If they aren't a sanctioned club, that's a shame but it remains 3 times instead of 4, if so.

edit #2---I see their matches on the schedule so I assume the are sanctioned?
 
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mwezell said:
Post 3 was was a group report. Post 4 gives a UBR report but I didn't see where a 264 was shot. I did see where Bob Baker shot a perfect single target at 200. That's a big feat, a score of 66 out of a possible 66.

Post 13 shows that Bill Dittman indeed shot a 264 in June of 2017. If it held up, then I guess it's been done 4 times instead of three. Thanks for pointing that out.

edit---I thought River Bend matches were sanctioned but I don't see the results on the UBR site. If they aren't a sanctioned club, that's a shame but it remains 3 times instead of 4, if so.

edit #2---I see their matches on the schedule so I assume the are sanctioned?
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That's odd; on my computer post 3 is the UBR report for Feb '17; but, my bad on the "264" -- I guess the "perfect score" language sent me down the wrong rabbit trail.

I'm pretty sure that the match at post 13 was sanctioned (even the UBR website implies that it was); I don't know why the results aren't on the UBR website -- someone must have dropped the ball. But, knowing Bill Dittman, I doubt that he cares whether his target is "officially" recognized.

RE: your edit # 2, I think they're sanctioned unless noted otherwise.
 
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