A NEW tuner question

I give up

I guess it's impossible to explain the point I'm trying to get across using a keyboard.
Good luck this year to all the guys.

Richard
 
Perhaps I should have said

I only have about 4 OZ of tuner I can use on the particular rifle I am working with. It's an HBR rifle. Yes, I'm one of the few and there are few tuners on HBR rifles.

Years ago, before I fell in love with Rimfire rifles. I used the very same tuner on a similar rifle and gave up on it because the rifle would go out of tune and I didn't have the time to put in to find out why. SO now I am trying to re-visit this particular setup. I know 4 oz works. I had used roughly the same weight tuner on VFS rifles in the past but in my absence, a number of much heavier tuners have come to the front and are more widely used.

Perhaps my situation is not the same as folks who have lots of room to use heavier weights and that appears to be the case. I was hoping to find someone who has used lighter weights as Gene had done in the past but alas, I have caused consternation here. I thought my question was simple and straight forward enough but I guess not. For that I am sorry.

Thanks All,

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
I have found a very tiny hole with my bare barrel. I have a behind the muzzle tuner. Do I screw the tuner to the back of the threads and begin to find the tiny hole I had when I screwed the tuner on? If I am able to find the tiny hole again, which way do I go to keep the tiny hole if things start to go south? I guess one needs to assume temperatures will almost always be increasing as the day goes on.

This is where the rubber hits the road, as far as I am concerned, which way and how much. Particularly when flags are dancing and very difficult to read with any consistency.

Thanks,

Pete
Click to expand...


Pete, I'm sorry we've had trouble communicating by e-mail. I've been busy with other things and have not had time to join the discussion but I'll make the time. :)

As to whether or not you should have the tuner installed when you develop your 'go to' load, some top level shooters disagree on this but I don't think it makes any difference. Personally, I do the initial tuning with the tuner installed, screwed all the way back to the end of the threads and set on zero. I never change neck tension or seating depth as I know that if everything else is right, my standard setting of 'just off the lands' will shoot. I increase the powder charge in .3 increments until I get the velocity I want and the group looks reasonably good, then make fine adjustments with the tuner. Adjustments of .001 increments in either direction will bring the rifle into peak tune within 4 to 5 increments. Once peak tune is attained, make a note of the outside temperature and tuner setting. For example, 60 degrees and plus 2 on the tuner or perhaps 70 degrees and minus 1.

From where the shooter sits, turning the tuner clockwise is 'out' toward the muzzle; turning it counterclockwise moves it in toward the breach. What this does to barrel vibration frequency depends on the design of the tuner, i.e. does any part of the tuner protrude beyond the muzzle? In which case turning the tuner 'out' actually increases the barrel length thereby reducing barrel vibration frequency. If the tuner is mounted entirely behind the muzzle and does not affect barrel length as it is adjusted, turning the tuner 'out' increases vibration frequency; turning it 'in' toward the breach, decreases. This is very important to understand in order to keep the rifle in tune as temp increases. You must remember that once fine tune is found, it won't stay that way if atmospheric conditions change. It's constantly moving mainly as temp changes.

Let's stop, take a break and see how we're doing.

Later,

Gene
 
I guess your comment

mwezell said:
Lol! Right...what was I thinking? I think you know the answer to that. I had sworn off trying to help you. Remember that letter you wrote me a few years ago, Pete? You're lucky that my response was to throw it straight in the trash. I wish I'd kept it...I'd post it here. It was the most classless drivel I can ever remember. It was clear proof that you are are a miserable, clueless and poor excuse for a human being.
I replied because I believe you're up to it again. You were a freaking tuner expert when you wrote that letter...now you don't know which way to turn and you're asking where to start. Lol!

To those that aren't aware, Gene feels that with his behind the muzzle tuner that it should be moved out, away from the receiver as temps increase. I don't disagree either him.

I have long touted the opposite to be the case with my tuner. I move it in toward the receiver for temp increases.

Gene and I have discussed this and agree the difference may be due to beyond vs behind muzzle designs. Gene and I have a wonderful relationship. I have great respect for him and we know that there are far better ways for us to spend our energy.

As I pointed out, you have unlimited sighters in short range br. Small adjustments for temp are as simple as moving the tuner a mark one way or the other and firing a 3 shot group on the sighter...it either got better or it got worse. If it got worse, take that mark out and go a mark the other way..BINGO! It's that simple. By the sound of Petes letter to me, you'd think he wrote the book on tuners.
There is more to this story behind the scenes. Pete is trying to cause more trouble and is being disingenuous. Boy I wish I had kept that letter! Trust me, it made very, very clear just what kind of person Pete Wass is.

So, I didn't reply here until I saw him being disingenuous and sought to nip it in the bud. Instead, he pressed it further. Now you know.
Click to expand...

About someone to win matches for me was a little much for me to withstand is all and thought it uncalled for. Hey, I don't claim to be anything other than someone looking for answers to questions I haven't heard yet is all. I am fully aware everybody doesn't love me for it.

It wasn't my intent to fight over this and I don't want to.

Pete
 
Richard, are you gonna get upset

Richard said:
the flags determine how I set the tuner. I'm not Gene, but I can tell you this. The tune for a rifle in the calm is not the same as the tune for the rifle in the wind.

Richard
Click to expand...

If I ask you some questions?

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
I only have about 4 OZ of tuner I can use on the particular rifle I am working with. It's an HBR rifle. Yes, I'm one of the few and there are few tuners on HBR rifles.

Years ago, before I fell in love with Rimfire rifles. I used the very same tuner on a similar rifle and gave up on it because the rifle would go out of tune and I didn't have the time to put in to find out why. SO now I am trying to re-visit this particular setup. I know 4 oz works. I had used roughly the same weight tuner on VFS rifles in the past but in my absence, a number of much heavier tuners have come to the front and are more widely used.

Perhaps my situation is not the same as folks who have lots of room to use heavier weights and that appears to be the case. I was hoping to find someone who has used lighter weights as Gene had done in the past but alas, I have caused consternation here. I thought my question was simple and straight forward enough but I guess not. For that I am sorry.

Thanks All,

Pete
Click to expand...

NO, you didn't but I'm positive that you are very sorry! There are very few true coincidences...this AIN'T one of them. Just STOP and go to... away. You and I both know the truth. Tuner info has been abundant and you are on the net a lot. You made this after the UBR thread to drive a wedge between Gene and I and to cause question for the many posts I've made on the subject. You might belong there, but you don't live under a rock! Stop acting like this is happenstance trying to cover your ass!
If you wanna talk, get out and shoot. I'd like that a lot. I won't ever forget the way you talked to me in that letter. My talk is church talk by comparison.
 
Tune for wind vs calm

Richard said:
the flags determine how I set the tuner. I'm not Gene, but I can tell you this. The tune for a rifle in the calm is not the same as the tune for the rifle in the wind.

Richard
Click to expand...

Richard, I have had several hall of fame shooters tell me in the past many years that they always leave a little vertical in their tune when shooting in heavy winds.

Gene Beggs
 
Thanks Gens

Gene Beggs said:
Pete, I'm sorry we've had trouble communicating by e-mail. I've been busy with other things and have not had time to join the discussion but I'll make the time. :)

As to whether or not you should have the tuner installed when you develop your 'go to' load, some top level shooters disagree on this but I don't think it makes any difference. Personally, I do the initial tuning with the tuner installed, screwed all the way back to the end of the threads and set on zero. I never change neck tension or seating depth as I know that if everything else is right, my standard setting of 'just off the lands' will shoot. I increase the powder charge in .3 increments until I get the velocity I want and the group looks reasonably good, then make fine adjustments with the tuner. Adjustments of .001 increments in either direction will bring the rifle into peak tune within 4 to 5 increments. Once peak tune is attained, make a note of the outside temperature and tuner setting. For example, 60 degrees and plus 2 on the tuner or perhaps 70 degrees and minus 1.

From where the shooter sits, turning the tuner clockwise is 'out' toward the muzzle; turning it counterclockwise moves it in toward the breach. What this does to barrel vibration frequency depends on the design of the tuner, i.e. does any part of the tuner protrude beyond the muzzle? In which case turning the tuner 'out' actually increases the barrel length thereby reducing barrel vibration frequency. If the tuner is mounted entirely behind the muzzle and does not affect barrel length as it is adjusted, turning the tuner 'out' increases vibration frequency; turning it 'in' toward the breach, decreases. This is very important to understand in order to keep the rifle in tune as temp increases. You must remember that once fine tune is found, it won't stay that way if atmospheric conditions change. It's constantly moving mainly as temp changes.

Let's stop, take a break and see how we're doing.

Later,

Gene
Click to expand...

You answered my initial question. Thank you. As I explained, I am limited to 4 oz. to be able to make weight so it pretty much limits me to a behind the muzzle tuner but I have seen some that are beyond the muzzle but not much, if any, heavier than mine.

It's the in and out part that I was looking for and to avoid any more discourse I plan to use the tune I have and see if I can move the tuner until the dot returns, providing it happens quickly. I assume one wants to leave enough room to move the tuner inward some if it is necessary, eh?

Anyway, thanks for answering and hope all is well.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
You answered my initial question. Thank you. As I explained, I am limited to 4 oz. to be able to make weight so it pretty much limits me to a behind the muzzle tuner but I have seen some that are beyond the muzzle but not much, if any, heavier than mine.

It's the in and out part that I was looking for and to avoid any more discourse I plan to use the tune I have and see if I can move the tuner until the dot returns, providing it happens quickly. I assume one wants to leave enough room to move the tuner inward some if it is necessary, eh?

Anyway, thanks for answering and hope all is well.

Pete
Click to expand...


Pete, we are making progress. The only thing we need to clear up is whether you go in or out when temp goes up. Very simple; when the rifle begins to go out of tune by showing vertical we need to speed the barrel up a bit. With your behind the muzzle Beggs tuner turning it 'out' speeds it up, turning it 'in' slows it down. I need to send you a new tuner that is engraved with the latest .001 increments and marked to help us remember which way is faster and which way is slower. Send me your mailing address and I'll get you a replacement in the mail. You'll like it. I use a precision rotary table to space the marks and each one moves the tuner .001 along the barrel. No guess work.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Thanks Gene

Gene Beggs said:
Pete, we are making progress. The only thing we need to clear up is whether you go in or out when temp goes up. Very simple; when the rifle begins to go out of tune by showing vertical we need to speed the barrel up a bit. With your behind the muzzle Beggs tuner turning it 'out' speeds it up, turning it 'in' slows it down. I need to send you a new tuner that is engraved with the latest .001 increments and marked to help us remember which way is faster and which way is slower. Send me your mailing address and I'll get you a replacement in the mail. You'll like it. I use a precision rotary table to space the marks and each one moves the tuner .001 along the barrel. No guess work.

Later,

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...

My mailing address is 56 Lafayette Lane, Palm Coast, Fl 32164. I appreciate your kindness.

Pete
 
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