700 Triggers

Z

Zebra13

Member
Gents,

I was messing with a Remington 700 trigger (Walker style) yesterday, and like others I had worked on, this one was temperamental, i.e., weight of pull varied quite a bit (6-8 oz's) when set at my desired weight, in this case 3 pounds. What was weird, though, was their were other weight of pulls that were very consistent, specifically 1 lbs, 15 oz's. The confounded thing broke at 1.14-1.15 every time, which is too light for the rifles application. It was also consistent at about 4 pounds.

To make matters even more confusing, this particular trigger was timed half-way decently in that the sear didn't contact the trigger connector until the bolt was cammed into battery. I think every 700 trigger I'd looked at previously had these two surfaces getting bashed into one another when the bolt was pushed forward. Sear hand-off on this one was about .054. A bit too much, but a helluva lot better than most factory 700 triggers.

The trigger got my typical treatment, in that the engaging surfaces were polished up to a black Arkansas stone in a fixture I made for the purpose, and then using the triggers adjustment screws to dial it in from there. 783 different pull-weight springs have been tried. The trigger connector got a wee bit of negative engagement stoned into it a'la W. Hambly-Clark's tutorials and will hold at cock with the trigger spring removed. It will pass the typical trigger safety check.

I SUSPECT that the tolerances built into the trigger have something to do with the inconsistency...I'm thinking they're allowing the engaging surfaces to contact each other differently from cycle to cycle. I thought about making some washer shims out of delrin to take out some of the wobblies in the sear/safety cam and trigger as they sit on their respective pins, but that may introduce some unwanted friction and make matters worse. Glueing the trigger connector to the trigger is another thought, as is dialing in the sear hand-off.

While I'm not the second coming of Arnold Jewell, I was trained by a former Remington warranty armorer on 700 triggers, have read W. Hambly-Clark's book wherein he writes at length about tuning-up 700 triggers, and spent some time talking to Dan (Dans40x) about trigger timing, so it's not like this is my first trigger rodeo...

So...what say you guys? Have you experienced anything similar whilst tuning 700 triggers, and if so, what did you do to combat these issues?

Thanks,
Justin
 
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Zebra13 said:
Gents,

I was messing with a Remington 700 trigger (Walker style) yesterday, and like others I had worked on, this one was temperamental, i.e., weight of pull varied quite a bit (6-8 oz's) when set at my desired weight, in this case 3 pounds. What was weird, though, was their were other weight of pulls that were very consistent, specifically 1 lbs, 15 oz's. The confounded thing broke at 1.14-1.15 every time, which is too light for the rifles application. It was also consistent at about 4 pounds.

Too make matters even more confusing, this particular trigger was timed half-way decently in that the sear didn't contact the trigger connector until the bolt was cammed into battery. I think every 700 trigger I'd looked at previously had these two surfaces getting bashed into one another when the bolt was pushed forward. Sear hand-off on this one was about .054. A bit too much, but a helluva lot better than most factory 700 triggers.

The trigger got my typical treatment, in that the engaging surfaces were polished up to a black Arkansas stone in a fixture I made for the purpose, and then using the triggers adjustment screws to dial it in from there. 783 different pull-weight springs have been tried. The trigger connector got a wee bit of negative engagement stoned into it a'la W. Hambly-Clark's tutorials and will hold at cock with the trigger spring removed. It will pass the typical trigger safety check.

I SUSPECT that the tolerances built into the trigger have something to do with the inconsistency...I'm thinking they're allowing the engaging surfaces to contact each other differently from cycle to cycle. I thought about making some washer shims out of delrin to take out some of the wobblies in the sear/safety cam and trigger as they sit on their respective pins, but that may introduce some unwanted friction and make matters worse. Glueing the trigger connector to the trigger is another thought, as is dialing in the sear hand-off.

While I'm not the second coming of Arnold Jewell, I was trained by a former Remington warranty armorer on 700 triggers, have read W. Hambly-Clark's book wherein he writes at length about tuning-up 700 triggers, and spent some time talking to Dan (Dans40x) about trigger timing, so it's not like this is my first trigger rodeo...

So...what say you guys? Have you experienced anything similar whilst tuning 700 triggers, and if so, what did you do to combat these issues?

Thanks,
Justin
Click to expand...

Solder the connector to the trigger.(low temp) Works for me.
 
NEVER again.....me

I've got a hand-written letter from Bill Ruger on the subject of "adjustable factory triggers" and litigation from back in the 80's when they had their narrow brush with losing the entire company over triggers.

And now Remington.....

And a long list of AD's, some resulting in grievous harm.

Remington triggers are simply not designed for being set to under 3.5lb. I won't even touch a stone to a factory trigger any more, especially with aftermarket multi-lever setups at under 150.00.

time/wear (thin case hardening)
dirt and dust
lack of lubrication
excess lubrication
temperature swings
moisture and it's appurtinent degradation of SLIDING surfaces
a design that precludes good lubrication (open sear)


just a few of the things that can turn a mousetrap trigger from "breaking like a glass rod" to "shooting a hole in the truck"


And for WHAT? Unless you pay yourself less than you could make pumping gas and that makes you happy happy happy..... why on God's earth would one spend the effort on a system that starts degrading from the first trigger pull?


MY OPINION IS....
#1, if you plan to shoot much, if you're a reloader for instance, BUY A TRIGGER
#2, if you want a useful, long-lasting hunting rig and you want less than 3.5 creepy pounds, BUY A TRIGGER!
and #3, if you want a high-speed low-drag varminter or any sort of competition gun, BUY A STEENKING T R I G G E R !!

spending more money to get less is just un-American
 
alinwa said:
NEVER again.....me

I've got a hand-written letter from Bill Ruger on the subject of "adjustable factory triggers" and litigation from back in the 80's when they had their narrow brush with losing the entire company over triggers.

And now Remington.....

And a long list of AD's, some resulting in grievous harm.

Remington triggers are simply not designed for being set to under 3.5lb. I won't even touch a stone to a factory trigger any more, especially with aftermarket multi-lever setups at under 150.00.

time/wear (thin case hardening)
dirt and dust
lack of lubrication
excess lubrication
temperature swings
moisture and it's appurtinent degradation of SLIDING surfaces
a design that precludes good lubrication (open sear)


just a few of the things that can turn a mousetrap trigger from "breaking like a glass rod" to "shooting a hole in the truck"


And for WHAT? Unless you pay yourself less than you could make pumping gas and that makes you happy happy happy..... why on God's earth would one spend the effort on a system that starts degrading from the first trigger pull?


MY OPINION IS....
#1, if you plan to shoot much, if you're a reloader for instance, BUY A TRIGGER
#2, if you want a useful, long-lasting hunting rig and you want less than 3.5 creepy pounds, BUY A TRIGGER!
and #3, if you want a high-speed low-drag varminter or any sort of competition gun, BUY A STEENKING T R I G G E R !!

spending more money to get less is just un-American
Click to expand...

Al,

I knew I should have put in a caveat in my initial post about liability concerns, Remington's litigation, the plethora of aftermarket triggers, etc. Would've saved you a whole bunch of typing!

I feel you, brother...and I agree with you...unfortunately. Not that you're wrong, but rather the fact that we've become such a litigious society wherein companies like Remington have to shell out big coin to people who handle firearms incorrectly, and blame the trigger, blame Jodie Foster, and blame everything under the sun...but never blame the actual cause of the accident...themselves. And juries buy that sh!t.

Never let the muzzle cover something you are not willing to destroy.

Don't know about y'all, but I've got a bit of trigger time with the Walker trigger. The only time they went bang is when I actually pulled the trigger.

But I digress...this Remington thing has been hashed out elsewhere on this forum. This is a trigger thread, so back on point.

Kudos, Al...you're the only one I remember saying that the two lever trigger isn't safe below 3.5 pounds. The aforementioned armorer who taught me said 3-3.5 pounds is the minimum for a two lever. Hence my target weight of 3 pounds.

In regards to the gun I'm working on, it is a department gun, and the department sent me to a 700 armorers school to learn to do such things as fix triggers, so that is what I'm doing. The gun is LEAVING my shop with a heavier trigger pull than when it came in, though. And I will be recommending that ALL of their 700 triggers be replaced with Triggertechs. If Triggertechs are good enough for Jim By-God Borden, they're good enough for me. But for now, you gotta dance with what you brought...

And all the BS aside, I'm genuinely curious as to what is causing the pull-weight fluctuations, and what is the fix.

Justin
 
I sold all of my timney and jewell triggers after I started polishing my triggers and changing the springs. Some will laugh, but I see no difference on paper. I don’t hunt with one in the chamber either. All spot and stalk stuff.
 
I don't disagree with any of the replies...

...but I've had pretty good luck tuning Remmy triggers (although, in practice, I follow AlinWa's advice and just buy new ones). I sedulously disagree with Mr. Hambly-Clarke (whose book is excellent in most other respects) about his trigger treatment, and it is no surprise that it would not yield a consistent trigger. I am also not Mr. Jewel, but I believe that a consistent let-off requires a neutral or positive engagement. A consistent 3-ish pound trigger should not be difficult, but as has been mentioned, the best way to do it is just to buy a trigger.

GsT
 
O.K. going to suggest that you check the fit of the Pins. For my own rifles and those are the only ones I will work on the trigger, I make new pins that are a "tap in fit" and then Lap out the trigger to just slide through. My theory is any lost motion lets the mating surfaces shift around. I go so far as touching up the sear while the Trigger is pressed onto a pin held in a V Block rather than clamping it in a vice. Don't know if the hole is really at a right angle but I figure it is when I locate off the pin. Good luck, a interesting puzzle, David
 
3lb is way to heavy for me. I dial in my Rem triggers under a lb. works for me but everyone has their preference
 
GeneT said:
...but I've had pretty good luck tuning Remmy triggers (although, in practice, I follow AlinWa's advice and just buy new ones). I sedulously disagree with Mr. Hambly-Clarke (whose book is excellent in most other respects) about his trigger treatment, and it is no surprise that it would not yield a consistent trigger. I am also not Mr. Jewel, but I believe that a consistent let-off requires a neutral or positive engagement. A consistent 3-ish pound trigger should not be difficult, but as has been mentioned, the best way to do it is just to buy a trigger.

GsT
Click to expand...

GeneT,

Thanks for your reply. I'd be interested to know why you think the W. Hambly-Clark trigger treatment would result in inconsistent pull weights. I have experienced inconsistent pull weights with neutral engagements as well. I dabbled with positive engagements with lackluster results.

It may be a case of trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

For the record, I have recommended that ALL of the 700's in inventory be retrofitted with Triggertechs.

Justin
 
Unless you get paid $300 an hour, it’s worth doing your own trigger. Takes 30 minutes to remove trigger, polish faces and change spring. Had a jewell on an edge while hunting. Froze up from snow and cold. Almost lost opportunity to shoot a nice 4 pt. After what felt like 50 cycles, it finally worked. Got home, sold it on another forum and started doing my own
 
Zebra13:

Epoxying/soldering the connector to the trigger, polishing the inside of the side plates and stoning the sear surfaces makes a big difference. The trigger cut in the receiver can vary a bit, also.

The biggest improvement to any trigger in a 700 is having the bolt fit the receiver properly.

Good shootin'. :) -Al
 
Zebra13 said:
Gents,

I was messing with a Remington 700 trigger (Walker style) yesterday, and like others I had worked on, this one was temperamental, i.e., weight of pull varied quite a bit (6-8 oz's) when set at my desired weight, in this case 3 pounds. What was weird, though, was their were other weight of pulls that were very consistent, specifically 1 lbs, 15 oz's. The confounded thing broke at 1.14-1.15 every time, which is too light for the rifles application. It was also consistent at about 4 pounds.

To make matters even more confusing, this particular trigger was timed half-way decently in that the sear didn't contact the trigger connector until the bolt was cammed into battery. I think every 700 trigger I'd looked at previously had these two surfaces getting bashed into one another when the bolt was pushed forward. Sear hand-off on this one was about .054. A bit too much, but a helluva lot better than most factory 700 triggers.

The trigger got my typical treatment, in that the engaging surfaces were polished up to a black Arkansas stone in a fixture I made for the purpose, and then using the triggers adjustment screws to dial it in from there. 783 different pull-weight springs have been tried. The trigger connector got a wee bit of negative engagement stoned into it a'la W. Hambly-Clark's tutorials and will hold at cock with the trigger spring removed. It will pass the typical trigger safety check.

I SUSPECT that the tolerances built into the trigger have something to do with the inconsistency...I'm thinking they're allowing the engaging surfaces to contact each other differently from cycle to cycle. I thought about making some washer shims out of delrin to take out some of the wobblies in the sear/safety cam and trigger as they sit on their respective pins, but that may introduce some unwanted friction and make matters worse. Glueing the trigger connector to the trigger is another thought, as is dialing in the sear hand-off.

While I'm not the second coming of Arnold Jewell, I was trained by a former Remington warranty armorer on 700 triggers, have read W. Hambly-Clark's book wherein he writes at length about tuning-up 700 triggers, and spent some time talking to Dan (Dans40x) about trigger timing, so it's not like this is my first trigger rodeo...

So...what say you guys? Have you experienced anything similar whilst tuning 700 triggers, and if so, what did you do to combat these issues?

Thanks,
Justin
Click to expand...

I’d be interested in seeing your stoning fixture!!
 
Danny,

Here you go. The square piece with the screws on the front is used to capture either the trigger connector or the sear. The arm with the roller bearing on it can be moved up and down to level it with surface to be stoned. The stone is placed on top of the bearing and run back and forth across the engaging surfaces, resulting in a nice, flat surface. The one picture shows a trigger connector in place for stoning.

Although I've never had the arm move on me once tightened, one of these days I'll put another screw in it as a fail safe.

My fixture is basically a copy of Wm Hambly-Clarke's, featured in his outstanding book, "Centerfire Rifle Accuracy: Creating and Maintaining It".

Justin
 

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