I well know that group and score shooting are quite different. But, something I've pointed out to some of the folks who shoot with us is that even though a PPC may not have the kind of knife edge accuracy required to win in group shooting, it may be accurate enough for quite a while to win in the score game. A few years ago when we first started shooting UBR there was a fellow just north of here who had a sleeved Remington XP 100 action in an old McMillan stock. The barrel had more than 7000 though it. He held the Modified Class record for a few months with a score of 259. Granted that's not an exceptional score, but it would win a majority of matches in that class. To get that kind of score the rifle would need to be shooting in the .2s. Just sayin....
Rick
Rick
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Rick, it's not clear at what yardage the above record was shot; however, at 100 yards, the equivalent of mid-.3s, specifically .358, would equate to a perfect score of 264 -- assuming the scope is "dead on."
Bill,
This was a 100 yd score. I will admit I have not done the math on that estimated group size. I got my figures from someone else and won't argue with you conclusion. I'm not clear what the scope being dead on would have to do with it though. I think I see where you are coming from and will add that it would be very difficult to be competitive with a rifle that would only agg in the upper .3s. In 5 years of competition we have only had one perfect 264 and that was in Custom class. The current record for Modified (100 yards) is 261, only two points above the one I mention. I guess my point is, a PPC can still be capable of winning accuracy when the game entails more than the capability of the barrel.
YMMV,
Rick
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Math is at http://ultimatebenchrest.com/about/the-targets , midway down. As for the scope being "dead on," the "group" needs to be perfectly centered on the target.
Looking forward to seeing you at River Bend in February.
OK, I do remember going over that. Good call. Danny and I had a discussion about this at a match in October and I wish I could remember his thoughts about group capability as it related to these targets but.....I can't. maybe he'll make a comment here, but I doubt it. Yes, looking forward to shooting at River Bend again and hope to bring several others along.
Rick
Greg Walley
Member
Not worth the trouble IMO.
As it has been said…YMMV, but my experience of this practice never paid off for me.
I remember when I took up the gunsmithing trade almost fifteen years ago, I eagerly anticipated the practice of “setting back” my “worn out” barrels to extend their useful life.
After “setting back”, and sometimes even doing a complete rechamber job (cutting the breech off at the point where the bore looked almost new), I was very disappointed with the results. Typically, I never got more than 300 rounds of useful life after the rework. I'm not really sure why. I suspect something happens to the metallurgy of the barrel (other than wear or heat/chemical erosion) that affects its gilt-edged preformance. I've surmised this by seeing barrels that had appreciable wear in the throat region continue to shoot competitively...and also seeing pristine throats/bores shoot poorly.
I also found that worn and heat-checked barrels are very abrasive on the throat of the reamer.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
As it has been said…YMMV, but my experience of this practice never paid off for me.
I remember when I took up the gunsmithing trade almost fifteen years ago, I eagerly anticipated the practice of “setting back” my “worn out” barrels to extend their useful life.
After “setting back”, and sometimes even doing a complete rechamber job (cutting the breech off at the point where the bore looked almost new), I was very disappointed with the results. Typically, I never got more than 300 rounds of useful life after the rework. I'm not really sure why. I suspect something happens to the metallurgy of the barrel (other than wear or heat/chemical erosion) that affects its gilt-edged preformance. I've surmised this by seeing barrels that had appreciable wear in the throat region continue to shoot competitively...and also seeing pristine throats/bores shoot poorly.
I also found that worn and heat-checked barrels are very abrasive on the throat of the reamer.
Greg Walley
Kelbly's Inc.
M
mks
Guest
This has been discussed before, but 0.358" does not correspond to the agg required, but to the worst allowable group IF the group is perfectly centered on the target. A group agg of 0.358" would typically include one or more larger groups, maybe a 0.4" and maybe even a 0.5" or larger. These groups obviously would not result in a perfect score. Similarly, if the worst group is a 0.358," then some better groups would probably be included in the agg, likely some 0.2's and maybe some 0.1's and zeros. IMHO, Rick is in the ball park when he says that one needs a 0.2" agging gun to get a perfect score. Even if you have such a gun and tune on a particular day, the shooter still needs to do everything right and/or be really lucky.
Happy holidays,
Keith
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Here are some interesting stats from the recent NBRSA group nationals; granted, these represent five-shot groups (not six as would be a UBR equivalent) -- however, they represent five targets (not four as would be a UBR equivalent):
In Sporter, 34 of the top 40 shooters did not have a group larger than .358, and shooter # 40 had an agg of .2556; shooter # 93 had an agg of .3004, with no group above a .358.
LV, 25 of the top 35 shooters did not have a group larger than .358, and shooter # 35 had an agg of .2558; shooter # 104 had an agg of .3110, with no group above a .358.
In HV, 37 of the top 40 shooters did not have a group larger than .358, and shooter # 40 had an agg of .2442; shooter # 135 had an agg of .3174, with no group above a .358.
M
mks
Guest
Interesting stats, indeed. Thanks for posting them. Now, would all those who shot no group larger than 0.358" get a perfect score with the same gun at a score shoot? Prolly not. Maybe not even one perfect score, given how uncommon they are. There is a difference in the challenge that requires an accurate gun, but something extra as well.
As Keith is pointing out, it is one thing to put 5 shots in the precisely the same location. It is another to put them in 5 separate precise locations on the same target....and then to do that same thing on 4 more targets. Jimy Campbell used to say that in group shooting the 1st shot is free. And of course, he was correct. But then I think you already know that.
Again, my point is not to say that score is more difficult that group. What I am saying is a barrel that isn't competitive in group competition MAY still be competitive in score shooting in the hands of a very competent shooter. This could be part of the reason that 30BR barrels seem to last so long in comparison to 6PPCs. They are rarely used in group shooting and the 6PPC is not usually used in score shooting (except in UBR).
Rick
Again, my point is not to say that score is more difficult that group. What I am saying is a barrel that isn't competitive in group competition MAY still be competitive in score shooting in the hands of a very competent shooter. This could be part of the reason that 30BR barrels seem to last so long in comparison to 6PPCs. They are rarely used in group shooting and the 6PPC is not usually used in score shooting (except in UBR).
Rick
jackie schmidt
New member
I shoot quite a bit of Varmint for Score.
If you are going to shoot 20+ X's on a consistent basis at 100, and 28+ in a Grand Agg, your 30 better be agging better than .300.
I am well aware what the math says. It just doesn't work that way.
If you are going to shoot 20+ X's on a consistent basis at 100, and 28+ in a Grand Agg, your 30 better be agging better than .300.
I am well aware what the math says. It just doesn't work that way.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
I would like to see 25 or so of the top group shooters shoot a 100-yard UBR agg; I'd be surprised if there were not several perfect scores. (I'm not suggesting that group is harder than the UBR target; I'm just saying that those 25 or so shooters are Top Guns.)
I'm not sure I agree with that. I've often heard/read that you'd better know when to start your group; also, that you need to know what caused it to hit where it did if you hope to put four others nearby.
M
mks
Guest
I have my own expectation about what would happen, but would like to see that as well. It would also be interesting for the best score shooters to show up for a match and shoot group instead. Then we would see for sure how those guns agg.
now back to our regular scheduled program.............................
"but back to the question do you still keep count or do you let your barrel tell you when to take it off?"
the 2015 ubr nationals factory class was won w/ a 6br barrel with 28-2900 rounds
and thats still good enough for me
"but back to the question do you still keep count or do you let your barrel tell you when to take it off?"
the 2015 ubr nationals factory class was won w/ a 6br barrel with 28-2900 rounds
and thats still good enough for me
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jackie schmidt
New member
We have.
I have shot 3 100 yard aggs and one Grand Agg with my 30 BR in Registered Competition. A .154, (officially measured by the NBRSA records committee), .225 at New Braunfels, and .192 at Denton, and .188 in a Grand at Midland.
I consider my 30 BR to be as accurate as any of my 6PPC's. It has also shot a 250 25X twice.
Score shooting and Group shooting are different in the way you approach them. The way Group shooting has evolved, the more successful shooters use the method of getting all the shots in either a consistent condition or the let ups. Most successful score shooters tend to hunt and pick the condition in order to keep the X count high.
Good Benchrest Shooters can do both.
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Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
So, Jackie, how 'bout shootin' a 100 yd agg with the UBR targets (that would be twenty four shots) and let us know how you do.
jackie schmidt
New member
I shoot the NBRSA Format. But I have recently started shooting 200 with my 6PPC.
But if I ever shot a UBR match, I might shoot a 6PPC in both 100 and 200. Why put up with the added recoil of a 30 if the targets are caliber neutral.t
As for the UBR Format, if it helps get more shooters to the line, then that is a good thing. Regardless, if you are going to win at anything, you still have to hit that dot in the middle, and do do that, you have to have a top notch rifle.
But if I ever shot a UBR match, I might shoot a 6PPC in both 100 and 200. Why put up with the added recoil of a 30 if the targets are caliber neutral.t
As for the UBR Format, if it helps get more shooters to the line, then that is a good thing. Regardless, if you are going to win at anything, you still have to hit that dot in the middle, and do do that, you have to have a top notch rifle.
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jackie schmidt
New member
Since neither of the two major Sanctioning Bodies are showing any interest in adopting the Format, I am really not that interested in it.
If, however, the NBRSA decided to adopt the graduated target, then would be the time to look into it.
I'm not sure if there is anybody holding matches within a 8 hour drive of Houston who uses the UBR Format.
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