6.5/284 Norma vs Winchester

J

jbarkervt

Guest
I just bought a Savage model 12 dual-port BR rifle in 6.5 x 284 Norma, as I wanted to give 600 yards a try and much preferred spending $1100 on a decent factory rifle to 4 grand on a custom rifle. From the first 20 rounds, it appears that it's going to shoot. It's not going to be competitive, but that was never the plan.

But I have a problem. I bought some Lapua brass, cleaned up the necks and ran the once-fired brass into a Wilson neck sizing die. This has been my practice for 25 years -- necksizing only, whether on factory rifles or custom rifles, and I've never had an issue. I've done this with a half dozen calibers and a dozen rifles, and I can't remember ever having to full-length size brass.

HOWEVER, when I went to bullet-seat the Wilson-neck-sized brass into a Wilson 6.5/284 bullet seater, the case became badly stuck in the Wilson seater die. There's a point right at the corner of the shoulder of my cases that is larger than the Wilson seater can accommodate.

First thought: is this Savage chamber just oversized, and too big to accommodate the Wilson seater?

Second thought: the Savage is chambered, according to Savage, for 6.5/284 Norma. The Wilson die is said to be (at least on the Sinclair website) 6.5 /284 Winchester -- as is almost every 6.5/284 die on the Sinclair site -- WInchester. It never occurred to me that these could be 2 different cases with different specs and different chambers. Is that possible? Am I that big a dummy? And if that's not the problem -- if Norma and Winchester are the same -- then why are my cases getting stuck in the seater?

Any information, thoughts, theories, and clarifications would be welcome!

Jim
 
Quote: "I just bought a Savage model 12 dual-port BR rifle in 6.5 x 284 Norma, as I wanted to give 600 yards a try and much preferred spending $1100 on a decent factory rifle to 4 grand on a custom rifle."

Here is the custom that I had built like yours, but it only cost $1443.00 and is very competitive. :):):):)

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=366263&highlight=

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=374570&highlight=

I am thinking of having a 6.5-284 Norma barrel made for a switch barrel gun using the same action & stock.

Can't help you with your neck problem because I have never had a 6.5-284.

"Aim small miss small", :D

gt40
 
Kind of suggests that you may want to have the GO spec on your chamber checked.

It may be that you'll need a body die for your brass.
 
If you have neck sized only for all that time you either throw brass away after the 2nd or 3rd firing or your loads are on the mild side.
there is no way you can not avoid problems without FLS....mainly the shoulder needs to be pushed back.

My Wilson in-line seaters came with a note that said they would hone the die to fit my cases if I returned them to Wilson.
I have a similar problem with a .222 match chamber using Lapua brass, but so far I have been complacent with just prying them out.
Why not try a little sizing lube for the seating process until you can have it corrected?

IMHO your going to have problems like this when using off-the-shelf products in a wildcat chambering.
 
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same problem

I have the same problem with a custom chambered Douglas 6.5- 284.Have no solution so far but will see if Wilson will "cure" the problem. Using a reg. threaded seater die for now.

jerrold

Vita Est Breves
 
Wilson die

Just send the die to Wilson with 3 cases fired out of your rifle and they will match die with your chamber. Nothing to worry about.
 
LHSmith said:
If you have neck sized only for all that time you either throw brass away after the 2nd or 3rd firing or your loads are anemic.
there is no way you can not avoid problems without FLS....mainly the shoulder needs to be pushed back.
Click to expand...

I take great exception to the above statement.

In both my .223 and 30-06 I never FLS, and I get at least 10 reloads before I start having chambering/extraction problems, and then I throw the brass away instead of FLS. My loads are far from anemic. So, one cannot generalize that you have to FLS or only get 2 or 3 firings. Maybe I am the exception, but I hardly think so.

In my opinion, the reason I only get 10-12 reloads is that the neck brass is becoming work hardened and will no longer contract enough after firing to allow smooth extraction from the neck bore. Others share this opinion also.

Here is a good reason not to FLS unless you have to:
Neck runout on just fired .223 Win brass .004". Neck runout on .223 Win brass just FLS'd in my Redding die .010"!!! Now I admit my Redding die is not top-of-the-line, but it sure screws up the brass. I quote from the Hornady manual:
"Though some rifles deliver their best groups when full length resized, neck sizing alone usually promotes better accuracy, because when our reloaded cartridge is returned to the chamber it is almost a perfect fit; headspace is just right with all cases, ....., and most helpfully of all, the new bullet is perfectly aligned with the bore."

I don't mean to be to argumentative, but your statement certainly could lead a newbie to reaching a poor decision concerning whether-or-not to FLS.
 
I have corrected my above post...enemic was a poor choice of words. There is nothing wrong with loads at or near the loading manuals listed"starting loads.
If NS only works for you, who am I to argue.
My experience is different, with my competition guns FLS everytime is hands down the best method......it delivers the most CONSISTANT performance.

In hunting chamberings, and I load quite a few, I am not able to get consistantly smooth extraction if neck sizing only for several loadings......therefore I FLS from the git-go.

Perhaps I am loading to higher pressures than you.
Yes the NS cases might be a tad more accurate, but for hunting I give the "cycling" ability (feeding and extraction) priority over 1 or 2 tenths moa accuracy edge.

I started Benchrest with a 6 PPC and a Lyman nutcracker with a neck die sizing Sako brass loaded to the bottom node, I got countless loadings on them without FLS or re-annealing.
 
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Second thought: the Savage is chambered, according to Savage, for 6.5/284 Norma. The Wilson die is said to be (at least on the Sinclair website) 6.5 /284 Winchester -- as is almost every 6.5/284 die on the Sinclair site -- WInchester. It never occurred to me that these could be 2 different cases with different specs and different chambers. Is that possible? Am I that big a dummy? And if that's not the problem -- if Norma and Winchester are the same -- then why are my cases getting stuck in the seater?
Click to expand...

The only difdference between the Winchester and Norma versions of the 6.5x284 is in headspace. The bodies are the same as you can see in drawings of both found here..... http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
 
When I use a wilson seater...I generally send three twice fired cases straight to wilson and have them fit it. You get a great fit for less cost than buying the die and then sending it to them if you have trouble. You generally have about a 50/50 chance of a factory chambered barrel brass not fitting the wilson die.

Just like the post before...send three cases and the die to wilson...problem solved

Hovis
 
LHSmith said:
If you have neck sized only for all that time you either throw brass away after the 2nd or 3rd firing or your loads are on the mild side.there is no way you can not avoid problems without FLS....mainly the shoulder needs to be pushed back.
Click to expand...

As a matter of fact, I shoot HOT .22-250 loads, and get 12 or 15 reloads out of crummy Remington cases.(Just switched to Norma). These loads are neither enemic nor "starter" loads -- they're at the opposite end of the scale. Ditto with 6PPC, 257 Roberts.

I wonder why you say "there's no way to avoid problems without FLS". After all, necksizing-only avoids working the case altogether. The brass expands to fill the chamber, shrinks back some, and you're good to go. I all my years of loading, I've never had a single problem, and I've certainly never had to push the shoulder back. I'd like to understand your point of view better.

In any event, some Imperial before seating might do the trick temporarily -- I'll give it a try.

Thanks!
 
HovisKM;526869 Just like the post before...send three cases and the die to wilson...problem solved[/QUOTE said:
Thanks to all with this suggestion -- will do.
Jim
Click to expand...
 
That should fix things up for you. I have Wilson dies in several calibers, and not all of them work the same. The 6mmBR cases tend to stick in the seating die, regardless of whether they come from a factory chamber or a custom one. I *should* send Wilson a few fired cases and have them hone the die just a smidge until they fit properly (seeing as how I could literally drop 'em off at their shop); in the interim I just keep a small #1 flat-blade screwdriver in my loading box and slip it under the case rim and pop the round out of the seater (not actually 'stuck' that bad, but definitely not coming out of their own free will).
 
Joe quotes: "The only difference between the Winchester and Norma versions of the 6.5x284 is in headspace. The bodies are the same as you can see in drawings of both found here..... http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm "

I looked at the drawings and they only show reference dimensions, not tolerances. In actual practice, the Lapua 6.5-284 Norma brass runs somewhat larger than the typical Winchester brass. Rifles (And seating dies) chambered to be a close fit to Winchester cases often are too tight for Lapua cases. I rechambered several rifles to address this problem and I sent my Redding size die out to be honed to size my brass to match the new larger chamber.

Scott Roeder
 
Finally some one got it right, call any of your favorite reamer makers and ask what the dimensional difference is between the reamers made for each case. There is a difference between the two.

This is not a new question, do a cerrosafe cast of your chamber and take a zero to one inch mic and measure to see the difference.
 
jbarkervt said:
As a matter of fact, I shoot HOT .22-250 loads, and get 12 or 15 reloads out of crummy Remington cases.(Just switched to Norma). These loads are neither enemic nor "starter" loads -- they're at the opposite end of the scale. Ditto with 6PPC, 257 Roberts.

I wonder why you say "there's no way to avoid problems without FLS". After all, necksizing-only avoids working the case altogether. The brass expands to fill the chamber, shrinks back some, and you're good to go. I all my years of loading, I've never had a single problem, and I've certainly never had to push the shoulder back. I'd like to understand your point of view better.

In any event, some Imperial before seating might do the trick temporarily -- I'll give it a try.

Thanks!
Click to expand...


If you are not experiencing hard to eject /stiff bolt lift issues, by all means keep NS'ing away.
I tend to load in the upper load window, and without bumping the shoulder and reducing the case diameter I would be hammering my bolts open.....be it a Remington or BAT action.
In addition to saving my locking lugs, I have found that with-in the same batch, not all cases will start sticking at the same number of firings.....and those that stick will send the bullet out of the group....FLS solves this problem.
I got rid of all my neck dies, everything gets FLS....one less caveat to keep track of and also allows inter-changeability of ammo since my sons, daughter and I have 7/08 deer rifles.
In my 42 years of reloading, I have never been able to get that many loadings without FL sizing or excessive force was required on bolt lift.
 
One more little tidbit...just about everyone that shoots a 6PPC in competition FL sizes, and you can bet any part of your anatomy that you care to that their brass is not very crooked. The trick is getting the right die, with the correct dimensions.
 
jbarkervt said:
After all, necksizing-only avoids working the case altogether. The brass expands to fill the chamber, shrinks back some, and you're good to go.



Thanks!
Click to expand...


Actually, even with neck sizing you are still work hardening the entire brass case every time it is fired, and eventually that shrinkage goes away, hence the need to reduce case dimensions at the body and shoulder and re-annealing if your so inclined.
 
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