5-group versus 8-group unlimited in NBRSA Nationals?

I say leave it as is. It is one of the things in benchrest that is truely a contest of skills of a different nature. It is the ultimate in enduring and truely proven accuracy, not just a few lucky shots. I welcome the challenge.

Larry
 
I have neither....

sat behind a rail gun, nor have ever shot in a match where rail guns were even contested, but much like golf, the National title (ie US Open) should be the toughest test in terms of what one has to do to claim the Championship. Leave it as is.

However, if in a region, a club chooses to hold something different in an attempt to draw a bigger crowd or for whatever reason then so be it.

Linc
 
lcw said:
sat behind a rail gun, nor have ever shot in a match where rail guns were even contested, but much like golf, the National title (ie US Open) should be the toughest test in terms of what one has to do to claim the Championship. Leave it as is.

However, if in a region, a club chooses to hold something different in an attempt to draw a bigger crowd or for whatever reason then so be it.

Linc
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Linc:

I have three questions for you:

1. Why have you never shot an unlimited match?

2. What could be done to get you to shoot an unlimited match, if anything?

3. Why do you believe the unlimited format, as it now exists, is toughest?

I'm not trying to be a wise acre. I'm just curious. I've shot many rail gun matches, both 5 and 10 shot. I've shot the Nationals format on a few occasions, and each time swear I'm not going to put myself through that hell again. Its not fun for me. I don't think its fun for most people. Hauling a 70+ pound gun around, setting it up 8 times a day and endless reloading are generally not fun. Unlimited competition is also the most poorly attended National event. So poorly attended that the BR Hall of Fame doesn't even award HOF points for the 4 gun National Champion. So they (meaning those folks that started the BR HOF) implicitly disagree with you (and me BTW) that the Unlimited is the toughest test of a shooter's ability.

Take care,

Mike
 
JDS said:
I agree with the po mountain man, Iffin you wanna change something, Start with the sporter and don't mess with the Unlimited.
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Jd and the rest of the guys here,we need to do something,just look at the membership decline in the past 3 years,Benchrest (group ) is dying and something needs to change.
I know,the few hard core will never think so until it's dead.
so,carry on and see what happens.
 
Roger,
I dont believe for a minute you think changing the UL format in anyway will bring back the numbers we have seen in the past. In my opinion the sport is swinging toward a Richmans game. I am hard pressed to afford the things that will make me competitive. I find it hard to justify this amount of money just for a hobby. Imagine what its like for a young man trying to raise a family and competing in this game.

It all boils down to the all mighty dollar.

My 2 cents
 
rhaney2 said:
Jd and the rest of the guys here,we need to do something,just look at the membership decline in the past 3 years,Benchrest (group ) is dying and something needs to change.
I know,the few hard core will never think so until it's dead.
so,carry on and see what happens.
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I am just new to BR, only have attended a few/several matches...... I think WE NEED more/bigger prizes or cash reward etc for the Winners. (or the "Top 10"?). We NEED more sponsors & bigger rewards, I think?.....For a comparison, in Indonesia, when I win a shooting match, I get some cash (around 1 million rupiahs to several millions) instead of the thropies/medals/plaques. In IPSC match, the 1st prize even a new car recently. To my observation (for our local matches), the more the cash/prize options the more the attendees would be.
I don't know how sponsorship is asked/managed, or how hard to get sponsorships in other countries(?), but I didn't see big prizes on the matches I attended before. Imho, the prizes/cash rewards should be much bigger for international/registered matches...whether we can win/to place well, or not...:D....(#1)

(#2). We need to "bring" new/more shooters to the match, or encourage them. I can see/understand that new shooters (like me) tend to give up after attending a match, (I suspect that?) knowing that they're not competitive etc enough. We need to encourage new shooters, also giving them insights that being competitive NEEDS time, efforts, etc....(I personally almost give up before this, knowing that I don't/can't have my own rifles/gears to shoot overseas due to our local firearms regulations). I just feel that, the more participants/shooters in a match, the more exciting/chalenging the match, & the more things I can learn/see from the match. Other new shooters perhaps would agree with this, too.

(#3) Perhaps add it with a live music or so, for instance during the lunch time...basically just to make the shooters a bit "relax" during the match...:D. Whatever that makes the shooters not boring or to make the match more interesting/more enjoyable.

(#4) Maybe we also need some kind like news, TV reportation etc(?), in hope more peoples to shoot BR???
Being ignorance, I ever asked in this forum long time ago, why there was no BR events in Olympic? Well, at least we have something like WBC.

Unfortunately, those all above "back to?" funds/money. My thought is, to minimize the match/range fee (especially for young shooters), optimizing/maximaxing sponsorships & the cash rewards & perhaps make better (more interesting) trophies/plaques/medals, too.

I have a strong believe with "we can IF we want"......The experts/veteran/long time shooters must share their knowlegdes and be kind/hepful to new shooters......The new shooters must not give up and learn as much as they can from the match & the old timers.....The shooting range/the organizer of the match must seek for better/bigger sponsorships, etc. We ALL need good cooperation, attitude, support to each others, volunteering, etc.

Sorry for my poor English...seb.
 
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JDS said:
Roger,
I dont believe for a minute you think changing the UL format in anyway will bring back the numbers we have seen in the past. In my opinion the sport is swinging toward a Richmans game. I am hard pressed to afford the things that will make me competitive. I find it hard to justify this amount of money just for a hobby. Imagine what its like for a young man trying to raise a family and competing in this game.

It all boils down to the all mighty dollar.

My 2 cents
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JD, i do agree,i didn't mean only UL format,i don't have the answers,but the equip race has had a impact on the decline and score shooting has taken some from group shooting,but it costs as much to build a score rifle as a group rifle.
The cost is the biggest thing and there is no payback,we don't get anything other than a pine board,we need more ,not money but more reconition.
I started shooting skeet and trap because i couldn't afford to travel and even make bullets.
so,beats me,but something will have to change or we lose BR shooting.
 
I built rail guns for several year, I really enjoyed shooting the rail and in many cases I shot it well. For health reasons I had to sell mine, (just to much to move around). A change to 5-10 shot groups might extend the life of other older shooters. I know if you are young and in good health you don't think about these things, but if you are around in another 10 or 15 years 5-10's might look very good. As far as a bag gun not keeping up with a rail, you guys haven't played the game long enough. What ever The members decide is fine with me, I can't do it anyway.
 
We need something to attract and keep new shooters.

Seb,

I agree with your assessment that it is hard for a new shooter to feel like he has a chance of winning something and getting some recognition for his improvements and victories, even if the victory is to acheive a certain goal.

I have shot competative archery for over 30 years. In archery there is a class system that is used for the various levels of an archer's skill. As the archer improves his skill, he moves up to the next level so that he is always competing against those who have a similar skill level and thus the opportunity to gain recognition within that group. An archer can participate in a tournament as a "B" shooter and do well in that class and feel like he has won something important even if the "AA" shooters all shot way better scores.

We in benchrest are a bunch of very intellegent people who could easily come up with a somewhat similar and fair system of class advancement just as archery has been doing. We could come up with 3 or 4 levels of skill/achievement/etc. in order to promote the participation and nurture of new and learning shooters. This would be in keeping with and even expanding upon the very thing that has made this sport so great for so many, that being the natural helpfullness of the seasoned competators to help and nurture those who are advancing.

It is unreasonable to expect a new shooter to invest a lot of money into a sport and then compete with those who are hall of fame level shooters for years before there is a reasonable hope of developing the skill level, equipment perfection that is needed to win. Most people have limited resources and an ego to be satisfied. We need to recognize these things and work out a system to satisfy beginners and even shooters with limited skills or resources in a continuing and progressive manner.

Thanks for letting me go on. I would like to help in any way possible.

Larry
 
Mike...

sorry it took so long to get back to you, to answer your questions....

I have never shot a rail, because I am new to this game, just starting my second full year, in the Midwest we do not shoot many unlimited matches, and I have never competed in a Nationals, but will.

I do not own a rail gun, but am interested in obtaining one as I hear they are good practice/test equipment with the return to battery, as soon as I get one, I will attend a match.

Having never competed and from the outside looking in, I would want the National Champion to have had to earn it by it being as tough as possible. Say for example you allowed the bag guns to compete for the title but would only have them shoot 5 shot matches against the 10 for the rails, I would not want to be a part of that win, much the same as I learned to play pool, lost many a $50 in races to 10 racks playing against better sticks. I am now paying my dues in the learning process and fully intend to be a competitor in the near future.

In all that, I think it should be left alone, but how about changing the rotation thing to lower the amount of moving????

Linc
 
Why are we still rotating benches?

Espeically in unlimited.
At many of the state-regional type matches we attend the only rotation is done after yardages, after each day or sometimes not at all.
What if when a range bid the nationals they stipulated what type if any rotation they were having? I know some ranges have better benches in some areas than others but many of the ranges that are large enough to hold the nationals have an pretty equal field.
Raton New Mexico comes to mind. Phoenix is another.
I would much rather stay on a single bench all day as move at either of the above mentioned ranges.
 
lcw said:
sorry it took so long to get back to you, to answer your questions....

I have never shot a rail, because I am new to this game, just starting my second full year, in the Midwest we do not shoot many unlimited matches, and I have never competed in a Nationals, but will.

Yea. It seems as if UL matches are not that popular in many parts of the US. The Gulf coast and SW Regions seem to be the exceptions. I love shooting 5 shot UL matches. I shot only two matchs all last year, the Cactus and the Dec. Phoenix 5 shot unlimited match. I'll shoot four or five matches this year and at least one will be UL. Still building a business and its tough to get away.
I do not own a rail gun, but am interested in obtaining one as I hear they are good practice/test equipment with the return to battery, as soon as I get one, I will attend a match.

Indeed they are great testing and learning tools. But, if you get a chance to shoot an UL match, especially a 5 shot match, with a bag gun, by all means do it. I've actually won UL matches with a bag gun shooting against other bag guns and rails. It really depends on the prevailing conditions of the day. In switchy conditions, bag guns actually have the advantage.
Having never competed and from the outside looking in, I would want the National Champion to have had to earn it by it being as tough as possible. Say for example you allowed the bag guns to compete for the title but would only have them shoot 5 shot matches against the 10 for the rails, I would not want to be a part of that win, much the same as I learned to play pool, lost many a $50 in races to 10 racks playing against better sticks. I am now paying my dues in the learning process and fully intend to be a competitor in the near future.

The National UL format is an odd one. You shoot 8 ten shot matches for two days. On more than one occasion, I've seen someone who was winning after the fifth match drop off the charts by the eighth match. Was this because they weren't the best shooter, because their equipment failed, or because they we're physically up to the rigors of the format? I really can't say, but I can't in my mind reconsile why they WEREN'T the best shooter -- at least until they hit the place holder positions -- because the only reason the last three matches exist, in my opinion, is to fill time till the next day's event. Since the Nationals are typically held in July, lugging that crap around, at high noon, probably plays a factor. Its tough to shoot 10 shot groups. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not very good at it. I respect those that shoot it well, but believe after having done it a few times, that the extra three groups are unnecessary drudgery. If you switched the format to say, five ten shot groups in the AM and sporter in the PM, you might entice others to shoot unlimited.

In all that, I think it should be left alone, but how about changing the rotation thing to lower the amount of moving????

All ranges are not created equal. Some have sweet spots and honey holes and the people that were lucky enough to draw these benches may have an unfair advantage. Hence, the rotation. I don't think this will ever change.
Linc
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I don't have any answers. Hope to meet you at a match some day.

Mike
 
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No Easy Answers

One reason that a "class"system will probably, (yes,probably), not work in Benchrest is because Benchrest is the one shooting discipline where the equipment plays such a big role. The simple fact is, great Rifles make good shooters. That is why many of us spend countless hours at the range keeping our Rifles in top shape.
In fact,75 percent of the time I put into this endevour is spent looking for ways to improve the agging capability of my set-up.
A first year shooter could score a great barrel right off the bat, and move up in the class system pretty fast. Then, when that barrel decided to go to heaven, reality would set in, (unless he was fortunate enough to score another great barrel), and he would be shooting mid "three" aggs against shooters in the low "two's", or better. Where would he be then??
Once again,we have a lot of opinions from shooters who want to change things, but don't even compete.
I do this for fun, and for the recognition of my peers. Money will not buy you happiness, and it darned sure won't buy you the respect of your fellow shooters. You earn that respect by putting forth an honest effort, and being a gentleman at all times.
We have had this conversation so many times that it seems like a broken record. Many of us are trying to promote Benchrest at the local level by having informal club matches, where shooters can get the feel of what Benchrest is. Denton, New Braunfels, and now Tomball, (all in The Gulf Coat Region), have club match programs with varied classes so anybody can come out and shoot. Equal awards are given for each class, whether it be Factory or all out Benchrest. If a shooter just wants to show up and win something without putting forth any effort, then he probably needs to find a shooting sport that is a little less demanding.
I don't know what else to do. There are several regular contributors to this Forum who run some sort of informal Club Match program. All of this takes time and effort. We are giving shooters a place to shoot with what ever equipment they have. It is up to them to come.
But I be darned if I will vote for anything that "dumbs down" Benchrest at the Registered Level, whether it be Unlimited or Bag Guns........jackie
 
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Mike,

I agree and look forward to finding out about unlimited BR ASAP. Look forward to meeting you as well.

Jackie,

I agree wholeheartedly on the dumbing down, while I do compete at BR, I have never competed at unlimited, but will soon. I would not want to be a winner by handicap of any reason, I want to shoot against whoever by the rules as written. We have been harmed by the, "everyone gets a blue ribbon for trying" sentiment that prevails in a lot of endeavors today.

Linc
 
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