338 Lapua Build Question

Ramsh00ter said:
I am currently looking at building a new long(er) range rifle for Elk Hunting.

Looking at the different options, I have pretty well settled on the 338 Lapua.

I am considering building it on a Mod 70 action as my first choice, second choice would be
a Ruger No1.

Can the rails on the model 70 be easily openned up for the Lapua case? Is the magazine long enough?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Randy
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Randy, I have been LRH purposfully for about 7 years,

started with a factory 300WM, went to a semi custom 260AI, then a 7 rum, off to a 338 edge.

The 338s are tops when it comes to killing elk way out there,( using 338 edge) I have used 300 smks, but this year I used the 250 AB on a 1202 yard bull. expansion was good and the bullet weight 165 grains after recovery on the far side shoulder hide. I guess I switched from the smk because of a couple instances of unpredictable expansion. Next year I am trying the 300 berger. If what some one said is true and nosler makes a 300 AB they better do it right and redesign the AB profile for higher BC.

I recently barreled my next 338 project which is a Lapua imp. on a surgeon xl single shot and a Brux 30" 9.5T, I'm trying my Magnum Muscle Brake on this one as I have not used it on any of my personal guns yet, I suspect it will kick like a heavy barreled 308, may-be less.

I think properly built and loaded the lapua is capable of extreamlly good accuracy, I have rifles out of the shop shooting much better than 1/2 moa extended range. One customer has reported a 5 shot 500 yard groups at 1.250" I'm not sure if this is the norm with him or his wallet group.:rolleyes:

Like was stated for max performance, use a custom action designed for this cartrige, the extra size and foot print will help support the heavy barrel, My edge was a 15lb rifle totaly rigged, I suspect this one will be around 19lbs. I don't see this as a walking rifle, but a set-up and sit gun. Walking one mile off the trail is not that difficult, I had carried the 15 lb gun on occasion 5-6 miles in a day.

The other thing to think about in all this is a quantified yardage you will hunt at, If I was looking at killing elk under 1000 yards a 300 rum would work just fine. My hunting partner has killed elk to 900 and deer to 1180 with his and 200 grain AB.
 
RamSh00ter,

If you want to play with numbers, here is a ballistics calculator much easier to use than the JBM calculator, but the results seem about as good.

http://bisonballistics.com/point_mass_calculations/new

You'll notice that at 1,000 yards, a .300 grain Berger hybrid has about 16 inches less drift in a 10 mph wind at 2,700 fps MV than a 210 Berger .30 caliber at 3,000 fps MV.

And that the .338 Berger at 2,700 fps MV isn't much worse than at 3,000 fps. Just like Dave Tooley said.

You will also notice the large numbers in both windage and elevation. For hunting, you'd better be very sure of your range. You better be pretty damn good at estimating the wind, which won't be constant in speed or direction. Better than a 1,000 yard match competitor with 15 years experience. Otherwise you miss at best and wound at worst.
 
Charles,

Berger has also recently opened the window a little more with their 215gr and 230gr hybrid offerings. Just saying.
 
Longshooter,

Yes, the strength, and weakness, of Damon's program is that he pre-calculates everything for the bullets, making it much easier to use than the JBM program. But we'll just have to wait for him to update the bullet list, as the 215 and 230 Berger hybrids aren't there yet.
 
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Ramsh00ter said:
Hey Al,

Thanks for the information.

I do not like cutting corners on a rifle that I expect to perform, you just end up un-happy.

I want to build something that will launch a 210-225 grain bullet (hopfully the Barnes) at 3000-3100. At this point, I don't see the advantage of anything over 250 for a hunting application.

The gun will not be used to carry back country, Spot, short stalk and shoot. I am too old to be walking around the hills with anything much over 7-8 pounds (I know, I am a whimp). So it will be a truck gun.

Per the advice I have received here and others I have talked to, a factory action such as a Rem, Win or Sav would give more headaches than I want to deal with. So it will be on one of the custom actions out there. Still researching.

I do not care if it has a magazine, single shot is fine with me. Second shot in this application is not needed that quickly. Heck, I got 3 rounds off with my No. 1 at the Elk going up the side of a hill, he traveled no more than a 150 yards between shot 1 and 3. We have all gotten pretty fast at throwing the next round in out Bench Guns.

Have you had any experience with the Stiller action?

Randy
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OK, If you have done your research, you will see that the Lapua magnum case is insanely over-built. It weighs at least a 100 grains more than a 338 RUM case. It is a military cartridge meant to be built on big actions. I did my homework (all prior to the advent of the RUM case) and decided on a 340 Wby. I have no problems pushing 250 grain bullets to 3000 fps. Norma brass is right there with Lapua brass.

Per your words "At this point, I don't see the advantage of anything over 250 for a hunting application.", that is the whole beauty of the big 33's. The only real reason to own one is for truly long range shooting. Long range shooting demands high BC bullets. The 250s are the minimum to be used for these long range beasts.

If your idea of long range shooting at elk is 500-600 yds, you have no need for a 338 Lapua or any of its equivalents. You can hunt elk effectively at 1000 yds with a 300 RUM or 300 Wby. I have done so and know lots of guys that still do. The 338s come into their own at about 1400 yds.

I have a 340 Wby built on a Sako Finnbear action wearing a Schneider barrel. I have no problem clustering 250 grain Scenars into 5" at 1000 yds( 3-shots). I can't imagine a 338 Lapua gaining anything over this. Two of my buddies have 338-378s and they are really not much better off than me. The next real step up is the Allen mags and the 338-408 chey tacs. My 340 weighs in the neighborhood of 8# without scope. It has no muzzle brake (I hate them) and is not unpleasant to shoot. It is a little stiff off the bench but a good recoil pad and scope with adequate eye relief makes it possible.

If you want a 338 Lapua for vanity reasons, I can completely understand that but don't compare the 338 brass to the other Lapua brass. Don't underestimate the Norma brass either. I am completely in agreement with the 1.125" minimum barrel tenon argument too. There are plenty of actions that can supply this, just very few you can buy at a local gun store.

Have fun.
 
New 338 Lapua Build Question

Hey all, I'm new to this forum and appreciate your advice and guidance. I am building (actually my dad is building me) a 338 Lapua and I am wondering about barrel length.

Here are the components:
Barrel: 31" Krieger .338 blank with 9.35 twist and 1.45" diameter
Action: Bat Model L
Tuner/Brake: Harrell's Precision
Jewel Trigger
Custom stock by Doyle Anglin
Scope: Planning on March 8-80 x 56 (suggestions welcomed, currently have good luck with Nightforce scopes).

My goal with this set-up is to have a super accurate, very long range gun. Weight is not really a big consideration. I have initially purchased 200 rounds of Lapua brass and 100 rounds each of Lapua 300gr. Scenar bullets and 100 rounds of Berger 300 gr. bullets. The barrel blank was 31" and trying to decide what length to finish at. My initial thought is 29-30" pre brake. Any thoughts you have on this would be appreciated. Any feedback on particular loads would be appreciated as well. I have purchased some Retumbo powder, but anyone that has experience with loads for this cartridge, please feel free to provide me with your advice.

My shooting group does a lot of prairie dog shooting and while this is total overkill for that particular prey, I am looking for a gun that is accurate to 1500 yards, shot from a good rest. We regularly make up to 1000 yard shots shooting 22-250 Ackley and 6-284's. Looking to expand to longer distance for bragging rights! :)

Also thinking that shooting at my local range that has 600 yard distance. Looking for the optimal accuracy over long distances. Looking for 1000 yard consistency in the end.

Thanks for your time! Good shooting.

Best regards,

Bruce
 
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IMO "accuracy" is unaffected by barrel length between 26" and 31" per your description......... except that with a 31" blank you need to throw away at least an inch of the muzzle so real numbers, 26"-30" finished length.

You will lose about 60-80fps dropping from 30" to 26"
 
You have too slow of a twist for 300gr bullets which youll need at 1500 imo. You should plan on using 250s which isnt all that bad
 
The AI rifles which most countries use for their military has 7 twists. They may have done more experimenting and changed the labels but my box of berger OTM tactical 300's in the tan box states 8 twist recommended. My brand new box of 300smk bullets from sierra 2 weeks ago says 10 twist so i think they must be revising what we all knew when these hawses were first knockin folks off the beautiful hills of afghanistan. I do know from experience an 11 will shoot 300 and 250smk decent at 1000 but the 250 shines at 1500 and the 300 is not impressive. But a current 10 i have is opposite. If you dont like the group at 1000 then back up. Not sure what to think
 
Read this thread with interest...

I have built a few long range rifles from 6mm to 50 caliber. There are few shooters and rifle actions that can handle the bigger Magnums with responsibility. First, the Remington 700 is not the choice action for the big magnums.

There is a quite a difference in punching holes in paper and taking big game at extreme distances. Shot placement, known distances and reading the wind are the necessary factors.

For those wanting to build a .338 rifle I would read Jim Borden's comments found on this web site. They say some of the same things that Dave Tooley and Mike Bryant have said. Obviously, these men have a clue about what they are talking about.

Nat Lambeth
 
Dusty Stevens said:
The AI rifles which most countries use for their military has 7 twists. They may have done more experimenting and changed the labels but my box of berger OTM tactical 300's in the tan box states 8 twist recommended. My brand new box of 300smk bullets from sierra 2 weeks ago says 10 twist so i think they must be revising what we all knew when these hawses were first knockin folks off the beautiful hills of afghanistan. I do know from experience an 11 will shoot 300 and 250smk decent at 1000 but the 250 shines at 1500 and the 300 is not impressive. But a current 10 i have is opposite. If you dont like the group at 1000 then back up. Not sure what to think
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Dusty

AI uses a 9.35 Bartlein's in the US. I know I chamber all of them. They used a 1-12 in the UK for the 250's. That is changing as more countries want to shoot the 300's. They're going with a 1-10. The 9.3 twist rate was chosen by one of our elite military units. The reason, it will stabilize a 300 gr. at subsonic velocities. Personally I don't shoot anything faster than a 1-10. No reason to. With what I know about 338's a faster than needed twist will have a negative affect on accuracy.
 
Thanks for you response

Rustystud said:
I have built a few long range rifles from 6mm to 50 caliber. There are few shooters and rifle actions that can handle the bigger Magnums with responsibility. First, the Remington 700 is not the choice action for the big magnums.

There is a quite a difference in punching holes in paper and taking big game at extreme distances. Shot placement, known distances and reading the wind are the necessary factors.

For those wanting to build a .338 rifle I would read Jim Borden's comments found on this web site. They say some of the same things that Dave Tooley and Mike Bryant have said. Obviously, these men have a clue about what they are talking about.

Nat Lambeth
Click to expand...

Hi Nat, I appreciate you responding to my question but am wondering if you read my original post. I am an accomplished hunter and paper target shooter and the action I am using is a very large BAT action, built specifically for this type of application.

When you speak of responsibility, are you questioning mine for the post or just in general. I will check out your referenced authors. Shooting a prairie dog at 800-1000 yards in S. Dakota winds are ALL about reading the wind, accurately ranging the target and having a VERY good understanding of the MOA correction for a particular load and then putting all of that together when you finally take a shot.

My post was specifically asking about overall barrel length for the .338 Lapua and what the performance differences are between shorter and longer barrels. If you have had experience in this area, please let me know. Thanks!
 
Good info, thanks!

Dusty Stevens said:
The AI rifles which most countries use for their military has 7 twists. They may have done more experimenting and changed the labels but my box of berger OTM tactical 300's in the tan box states 8 twist recommended. My brand new box of 300smk bullets from sierra 2 weeks ago says 10 twist so i think they must be revising what we all knew when these hawses were first knockin folks off the beautiful hills of afghanistan. I do know from experience an 11 will shoot 300 and 250smk decent at 1000 but the 250 shines at 1500 and the 300 is not impressive. But a current 10 i have is opposite. If you dont like the group at 1000 then back up. Not sure what to think
Click to expand...

Hi Dusty, thanks for your response. I agree that experimentation is going to be key. With the 9.35 twist Krieger, I am going to try some different loads with both the 300 gr. Bergers and Lapua Scenars as well as their 250 gr. versions. What type of loads are you shooting? Have you found a powder that you like best? I am going to try a few, starting with Retumbo. Let me know what you've experienced and I look forward to your recommendations! Have a great evening!

Best regards,

Bruce
 
I like H1000. Shot 300 and 250smk today at 1000. Got a video at 600. This was with my defiance action and 8twist. Gonna try to upload it
 
Bruce,

I'm using a BAT L. Single digit serial number so that tells you how long I've had that action. I'm looking at 7 barrels on the shelf that were used on that action. You made a good choice. There is no reason to go shorter than 30" on the barrel. You're going to have a large rifle, might as well be long also. Anything past 30" becomes cumbersome with modest velocity gains.

Dave
 
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