338 Edge or 338 Norma?

M

marlowjoe

New member
I am thinking about building one or the other. If it was you which would you build for extended range, With accuracy in mind? And why? I plan on shooting the 300gr Bergers. And what kind of fps can I expect? Not looking for hyper velocity, just accuracy. I will be using a 30" kreiger 9.35 twist barrel. And what brass would you choose?

thx for all input.
 
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MarlowJoe
I don't know how to link to it but there is a thread on the 1000 yard forum by myself with a title like Tod Soeby and Alinwa.
In that thread Dave Tooley talks about the 338 Norma.
Lynn
 
marlowjoe said:
I am thinking about building one or the other. If it was you which would you build for extended range, With accuracy in mind? And why? I plan on shooting the 300gr Bergers. And what kind of fps can I expect? Not looking for hyper velocity, just accuracy. I will be using a 30" kreiger 9.35 twist barrel. And what brass would you choose?

thx for all input.
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Shawn Carlock www.defensiveedge.net just called a "headshot" on a pig in Texas last week at 953 yards with a 16 mph crosswind shooting the 300g bergers with his .338 Edge. I shoot a 338 Tejas with 94.0g H1000 at 2,832 fps with Remington brass and CCI 250 primers. Shawn has some good load data on his website.
 
marlowjoe said:
I am thinking about building one or the other. If it was you which would you build for extended range, With accuracy in mind?
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I don't know anyone who says "I don't care about accuracy. But what's good depends on the application. What's yours?


I plan on shooting the 300gr Bergers.
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Good choice. But if you're going to spend all this money, you should have a fallback. So once again, what's the purpose? Hunting? Tactical? Benchrest?

And what kind of fps can I expect? Not looking for hyper velocity, just accuracy.
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So don't worry about fps.

And what brass would you choose?
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Ah. With the Edge, unless you can find some of the no-longer-made RWS .404 brass, you're limited to Remington (easy) or Norma .404 brass. With the Norma, or any other .404 brass, you'd have to rebate the rims as well as form the cases.

Oddly enough, with work, the .338 Norma might offer more brass choices. It seems to be based on the .416 Rigby, as is the .338 Lapua. You'd have to check all the numbers -- "based on" can be a bit loose -- but there is a lot more Rigby-based brass out there, from the Lapua to Norma to maybe even some RWS.

(The older I get, the less case forming I like. YYMV.)

Finally, there are a number of competent 'smiths who won't put a Rigby-diameter case on a Remington 700. No problem with the .540 diameter cases. So which action you choose might be a consideration, too.
 
Marlowjoe

What's the deferents's between a 338 Norma & a 338 Dakota ?
Max
 
Charles, thx. I would be wanting benchrest accuracy. Some people are happy with keeping the shots in the vital area of the game they are hunting, not me. I expect some where around 2700fps or so. Rem is ok. After I read Dave's comment, I started thinking about the 338/375. shorter case , easier tune, what else would you want in a 338? I wonder which version Dave was talking about. Ackley design ?

Joe
 
marlowjoe said:
Charles, thx. I would be wanting benchrest accuracy. Some people are happy with keeping the shots in the vital area of the game they are hunting, not me. I expect some where around 2700fps or so. Rem is ok. After I read Dave's comment, I started thinking about the 338/375. shorter case , easier tune, what else would you want in a 338? I wonder which version Dave was talking about. Ackley design ?

Joe
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I didn't ask Dave. I would imagine he's just going to neck it down. The 30-degree shoulder of the parent case makes brass prep & eventual FL sizing a lot easier. If you want more capacity, use a bigger case.

We're figuring about 2,600 fps with 4831. But the 300 Berger only loses about 900 fps in 1,000 yards, good enough for me. BTW, you still didn't say what the application was -- are you going to carry the rifle, as with hunting? Things to consider.

Another BTW -- when I talked to Dave last week, he was so busy with industrial and government work he really didn't have time to build individual rifles. I ordered my barrel, to be chambered only, last September, for about a June delivery.

But a simple necked-down .375 Ruger isn't difficult, anyone can grind the reamer, and I believe Hornady will make the dies.

If you want more speed & have a Remington action, I'd go with the Edge, though as it turns out, it has about the same capacity as the .338 Lapua Mag. In other words, a fairly violent round. I shoot mine in a 17-pound 1K Light Gun. You wouldn't want to carry it farther than to the bench.

If you want more speed and your action will support the .580 diameter cases, the Norma probably makes more sense than the Edge.
 
Charles -

Who makes the 300 Ultra brass for Nosler?
One guy I know likes the Nosler brass better then the Remington brass for his 338-Edge.

A advantage I see with building a 338-Edge is utilizing a magnum bolt face. More versatile for switching calibers.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
dmoran65 said:
Who makes the 300 Ultra brass for Nosler?
One guy I know likes the Nosler brass better then the Remington brass for his 338-Edge.
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I don't know.

A advantage I see with building a 338-Edge is utilizing a magnum bolt face. More versatile for switching calibers.
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I suppose. The same would be true of the Ruger, either the factory offering, or the longer wildcat based on the .375 Ruger case. No rebated rim with the Ruger.

One thing I didn't know when starting this adventure was that the capacity of the Edge (or my .338/404) is essentially the same as the .338 Lapua magnum. They are both pretty violent rounds, and complications apparently can show up with stock, barrel rigidity, etc. As always, heft would minimize them, at the expense of weight. Al (inwa) has run into this, as have others.
 
Charles E or Alinwa, Al mentioned that the stock (s) he was having trouble with were thumbhole designs. Would a FULL grip laminated be a better option if a person was to use it in a lighter weight say 12-13 lb rifle with a brake for hunting purposes or maybe an AICS chasis ?
 
Roger T said:
Charles E or Alinwa, Al mentioned that the stock (s) he was having trouble with were thumbhole designs. Would a FULL grip laminated be a better option if a person was to use it in a lighter weight say 12-13 lb rifle with a brake for hunting purposes or maybe an AICS chasis ?
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I don't know. Mine uses a Shehane target stock in fiberglass, by McMillan. There is a lot of Adamowicz DNA in that design, which means a stiff wrist. I also use a tensioned barrel, so while the barrel is quite light, there is a lot of stiffness in that system, too.

Bill Shehane has a fair bit of experience with heavy-recoiling stocks (he played with a .505 Gibbs for a while), you might get up with him.

For the AI chassis, Dave Tooley probably has the most experience.
 
I have several of Bills (BR laminated)stocks but not in a hunting style . I'll get in touch with him......
 
Charles, I have a trued rem action. On long range hunting forum there's a couple of fellas that say they are getting 3100fps out of the 338/375. I don't know about that for sure. I guess it's possible, but I do find that hard to figure. I am planning on building it on a Tac21 chassis for shooting steel out to 1500 meters at the range. I even thought about the Stiller Predator Extreme as the action for it. I was thinking about H1000 for my powder or Retumbo even though it is somewhat dirtier. I have had good luck with both in my Ultras'.
I figure the rifle will weigh aprox 20lbs with all the extra's. I still don't know which to choose from. Both sound like good choices. I was told by a smith that the Rem action isn't quite strong enough to handle the Edge at it's full potential. Maybe Dave or someone with more knowledge will chime in and let us know the facts..

thx again
 
Joe,

I'm curious why your smith doesn't feel the Remington is strong enough for the Edge. The usual "strength" reason given is the 1.062 tenon of the Remington doesn't give enough thickness for a .580 diameter case like the Rigby (.338 Lapua) or .378 Weatherby. See

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/378_weatherby_remington_700_action.htm

But the Edge is a .550 body. There shouldn't be any lug setback, and the chamber shouldn't swell beyond the elasticity of the brass with reasonable pressures. And the Edge is nothing more than a .338 RUM, a Remington offering -- it just predated it by a bit. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Edge

(maybe a hair longer, as it is a wildcat on the .300 RUM). Having said all of that, I would agree there are better choices than a Remington, but not for strength with normal pressures and a .545 body diameter case.

* * *
Here you go talking velocity again. If you're shooting known distances, the extra velocity only buys you a little advantage in wind deflection. Most of the 1,000 yard shooters I know who use the .338 have gone to the smaller cases, for accuracy reasons -- those very slow powders don't seem to give the accuracy. Or to be honest, H-1000 and VV N-170 don't. Don't believe either Steve Shelp or Scott Fletcher tried Retumbo, thought I wouldn't rule Scott out.

Scott, BTW, has been shooting .338s for over 10 years, and won some HG firsts in several IBS Nationals, including at least one Heavy Gun "overall."

You can use an Edge & H4831 with the 300 grain Berger, the case just won't be as full, and you can't run over about 2650 & stay in the 60,000 psi region. But if you're one of the lucky ones & can get your barrel to not have fliers with the very slow powders, you have them as an option.

For me, if the .338/375 Ruger doesn't work out, I'll just run our existing .338/404 reamer in a little short with the next barrel -- probably .125 short, for a case length of 2.750 instead of 2.875. Pushing the shoulder back is not hard, but also not much fun -- I've shot both the .30 MHV and SHV, which are the .404 case with the shoulder pushed back. The old neck/shoulder joint with its crease winds up in the new neck. Annoying, but with boat-tail bullets, not really a problem.

Point being I've already got all that tooling, and for anyone starting out fresh, it would be nice to avoid the cost & effort.

Anyhow, for my money, with a Remington, you're limited to the Edge or Ruger. An action with at least a 1.125 tenon & sufficient receiver-ring diameter -- a 1.250 tenon would be better still -- lets you include things up to the .338 Norma, .338 Lapua, or the .338/378 if that's your preference.

The 10-inch BAT with a nominal 2-inch diameter is perfect. That's what my rifle is built around, though the action has been cut down (shorter tenon length), with the action sides milled a bit, to lighten the action.

The BAT M153R -- an 8.5-inch action -- would work, too. See

http://www.batmachine.com/products/products.htm

FWIW
 
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Charles, 2600 is fine. I was just saying some one said 3100 Whew!! Not for me. Will the Ruger velocity be around the 2500-2600 mark?

thx Joe
 
Dave said around 2600 with 4831 -- that was out design goal, in fact. I can live with 2,500, but not less (want at least around 1600 at 1,000 yards).
 
FWIW I have both 30 and 338-375 dies on order if anybody is interested. I've been working on getting these cartridges to market and just recently have been forced to change my approach. I need a list of riflesmiths that I can use their names on a list of interested parties. Any smiths can contact by PM or email. I will see about getting the reamer prints released. The worse case would be the reamer mfg would keep them on file to make the reamers. There are designs for both hunting and tight neck target chambers.

The 338 will push a 285@2655 FPS out of a 27" barrel and meet temperature/pressure specs. That's close to the performance of the 338 Norma Mag. The 30 pushes a 225@2850 FPS, 27" barrel. Again meeting temperature pressure specs. In these days of ever increasing costs the 338 fits an important place. It has 80% of the performance of a 338 Lapua at 60% of the cost. The 30 well the world doesn't really need another 30 cal magnum but it fits in a niche where it's short enough to feed well(important) and large enough to out perform the 300 WM by enough to make it interesting when using heavy bullets at distance.

If anybody has questions feel free to get in touch with me. It took two years to get the McMillan MBR stock made, the rest is history there. This may take just about as long to get "officially" cataloged. In the mean time we can get the chambers standarized and get the cost of dies down.

Regarding the Edge on a Remington action. Good round but as a repeater it is cramped and a steady diet of any case based on the 404 .550" diameter case will, when run at higher pressures, set back the lugs in the action. I've seen it too many times with high round counts on the actions.

My focus has been on making long range sniper rifles perform at distance. That covers a lot of territory. Not just accuracy but they have to perform in all envioronments. That's when you see how close to the edge we run things in the civilian world. My advice is to go to a stout action. For an Edge I would use an action designed for the Lapua case. In the long run you'll be happier and it only takes another bolt to go up in case size.

Dave
 
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