333Smitty "cactus 2-gun tie"

Joe Krupa said:
The fun part comes when one is in the middle of the yardage and dueling it out with someone else and you try to see how much smaller you needed to shoot on the remaining targets to overtake the guy. There is an arithmetic formula (which Jim Carstensen showed me once and I have committed to memory), but I won't go into it here for the sake of not making this a 1,000-post string.
Click to expand...

Joe, I enjoyed reading your post; thanks for taking the time to write it. As for that formula to tell you "how much smaller you needed to shoot on the remaining targets to overtake the guy," recognizing that you're chasing a moving target (no pun intended), that must be some big-time formula. :)

Congratulations on your accomplishments; I look forward to meeting you one day.
 
Aka: it seems to me you like to use decimal points when and where it fits to make your argument. Use them every time it don't use them at all. .200 for five groups will give you a posted agg of .2000. Just like five groups off 200 will give you a posted agg off 2000. And if you think for one minute, 5 groups of 200 equals and agg of 200, then the only people I feel sorry for are the ones you are shooting against because when they figure your grand you automatically started with an advantage of 1800.
This has been fun but I must stop now. I am at the SS and have much to do.
Andy
 
Andy, Joe, et al.

I have worked as an estimator an detailer of both structural and retired as one for a general contractor, so I am familiar with the work. Lots of counting, geometry, arithmetic, and in the case of the steel detailing trig. Nevertheless I do completely disagree with ignoring decimal points and the operation needed to put it in the right place.

Joe, because one is shooting through more "weather" and because of mirage, 200 is always going to be a challenge, but I think that you would agree that there is nothing unfair about this since it is the same challenge for everyone.

Also, I do not challenge the use of computational shortcuts. I was only speaking to the idea that one of the steps in this particular one resulted in 100 yard aggs being more heavily weighted in grands. It does not, and that was my sole point.

While matches at 200 are won by differences in actual measured size, aggregates for that distance are converted to their 100 yard equivalent, by dividing the average of groups by two, a sort of bastardized conversion to equivalent angular dispersion that is commonly referred to a conversion to MOA, even though that is not true, because a MOA is larger, different than, an inch. There is no particular harm in using this reference as long as we all understand what is meant, and what is done.

At the end of it all, aggregates are averages of a form of angular dispersion, that does not recognize the difference in difficulty of the two yardages, but since the rules are uniformly applied, there is nothing unfair about it.

Also, I admit to intentionally stirring the pot, and it had the result that I was looking for. More people became involved in the discussion. It was a tactic that I knew would likely cost me some good will, and not really damage Andy. The reason that I bothered with this discussion at all is that his recounting of how aggs are computed does not square with the rule book, but is instead an effective shortcut for doing the calculation, as long as due attention is paid to the decimal point. It is his conclusion as to some sort of resultant weighting of the result that I disagree with.

Let me end this by again congratulating Andy on his shooting skills, most recently demonstrated under trying conditions, against a tough field of competitors.
 
so, if the current calculation method for figuring a grand agg is so flawed according to the mathematicians and engineers, what would be the correct method, considering we are shooting 5 targets at 100 and 5 at 200 yards?

equal "weight" for both 100 and 200 yards?
 
This thread clearly demonstrates why this forum doesn't often get visited by, or given much attention by competitive Benchrest shooters. Why should it? How many times should we voluntarily stick our fingers in a mousetrap? Here we have a Competitive forum in which someone asks a question about the nature of competition, and then we have a very intelligent, super nice guy like Andy give a little helpful tip for those of us who aren't good at math in our heads, and he gets raked over the coals by internet bullshooting jockies just looking to stir the pot. It's almost unbelievable to me that Wilbur lets this crap happen. This is exactly why back at the introduction of this sub forum, I advocated that only card carrying members of some form of competition be allowed to post answers in this section. Let all the internet heroes with keyboard diarrhea have all the other sub forums. Just leave us this one place that's different from the rest. But, in the end, it wasn't to be, and thus we see this kind of garbage taking place. All it did was confuse the hell out of the person seeking info, aggravate and insult a very knowledgeable and helpful competitor, and scratch the itch of someone looking for trouble. What a shame. I had some thoughts on this thread's topic, but after what has transpired here, damned if I'd share them. I think I'll keep it for game day chat with fellow shooters in the loading area..........at least there I know there are lots of better mousetraps, but none that are going to break my fingers.;)

Andy, Chris, Kevin and Joe, good luck at the SS! Wish I could go with ya.:)
 
Last edited:
goodgrouper said:
[A]t the introduction of this sub forum, I advocated that only card carrying members of some form of competition be allowed to post answers in this section. Let all the internet heroes with keyboard diarrhea have all the other sub forums. (See 1 below.)... All it did was confuse the hell out of the person seeking info, aggravate and insult a very knowledgeable and helpful competitor...What a shame. (See 2 below.)
Click to expand...

1. Why does the word, "elitism" come to mind?

2. It's a shame to share correct information with someone seeking information?
 
Last edited:
HovisKM said:
goodgrouper,

Are you going to make it to the East/West this year?

Hovis
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not. I'm so busy right now that I will be lucky to make any shoots outside my home state. Was going to try to make it to Lands End this weekend but that fell through too.

Are you doing the East/West?
 
aka Hunter said:
1. Why does the word, "elitism" come to mind?

2. It's a shame to share correct information with someone seeking information?
Click to expand...



What is so elitist about limiting a sub-forum called "Competition Benchrest--ONLY" to competitive users only? Are the Rimfire shooters and the Gunsmiths elitist too since they have their own sub-forum? If someone asks a question on the Centerfire sub-forum, it should be fielded by anyone who knows the answer. But if something is asked in the Competition Benchrest Only section, and it's a direct inquery about the nature of competition, why is it considered elitist to think that someone who actually COMPETES should answer the question? Why is it considered elitist to want to have a place where fellow competitors can go and post a tip, or an idea, or a comment, and not have to worry about taking it up the arse from somebody who doesn't even have first hand experience with the topic?

As for number 2, no. It is not. The shame is in how it was handled. See above paragraph.
In this particular thread, we had an intelligent and helpful competitor give a tip and make some observations on a sub-forum meant for him, and then we had non-competitive internet heroes insult him, and try to tell him where the bear craps in the forest. You wanna talk about elitist? How 'bout we talk about disrespect instead? I don't know Andy really well, ( I loaded near him and chatted with him a bit at the Nationals a couple years ago) but I'm fully confident Andy is aware of more things than those keyboard jockies will ever know, and it is a shame he got treated the way he did by folks who have no right and no foot to stand on.:(
 
Last edited:
Mr. Goodgrouper or ???

I am not sure who you refer to as keyboard jockeys and non-competitors, but it is very evident that you are....as Louis Lamour would say, "Too swole up on yourself!"

I am a competitor and have been since February, 1997. I can't speak for others, but I know Andy well and consider him a friend. If I knew your name, I would look you up at a match and we could discuss competition-type shooting and other related topics.

If I was out of line with my posts, then I am sorry....which I have told Andy. If you are out of line, maybe you should do the same for those that you refer to as keyboard jockeys. Your attitude is that if we don't conform to your standards of competition, then we should not be allowed to post on this forum. Good shooting..... James Mock (my real name).
 
goodgrouper said:
What is so elitist about limiting a sub-forum called "Competition Benchrest--ONLY" to competitive users only? (See 1 below.) Are the Rimfire shooters and the Gunsmiths elitist too since they have their own sub-forum? (See 2 below.) If someone asks a question on the Centerfire sub-forum, it should be fielded by anyone who knows the answer. (See 3 below.) But if something is asked in the Competition Benchrest Only section, and it's a direct inquery about the nature of competition, why is it considered elitist to think that someone who actually COMPETES should answer the question? (See 4 below.) Why is it considered elitist to want to have a place where fellow competitors can go and post a tip, or an idea, or a comment, and not have to worry about taking it up the arse from somebody who doesn't even have first hand experience with the topic? (See 5 below.)

...

In this particular thread, we had an intelligent and helpful competitor give a tip and make some observations on a sub-forum meant for him, and then we had non-competitive internet heroes (see 6 below) insult him, and try to tell him where the bear craps in the forest. You wanna talk about elitist? How 'bout we talk about disrespect instead? I don't know Andy really well, ( I loaded near him and chatted with him a bit at the Nationals a couple years ago) but I'm fully confident Andy is aware of more things than those keyboard jockies will ever know (see 7 below), and it is a shame he got treated the way he did by folks who have no right and no foot to stand on. (See 8 below.).
Click to expand...

1. Surely, that doesn't need a response.

2. I'm not aware that those sub-forums are off-limits to non-rimfire shooters or non-gunsmiths for the posting of answers.

3. Here, it strikes me that answers/comments were offered by people who knew the answer -- or at least thought they did.

4. It strikes me as elitist to think that only someone who actually COMPETES could read and understand the rules.

5. How do you know that the folks who responded don't have first hand experience with the topic?

6. I'm not sure about the "hero" part of the description; however, how do you know that those "heroes" are not competitive (at least in the sense that they may compete, not that they put pressure on the "big dogs").

7. I suspect Andy would say that he doesn't know everything, and that every single person knows something he doesn't know. Also, "ever" is a long time.

8. Again, why does the word "elitism" come to mind.
 
James M. said:
I am not sure who you refer to as keyboard jockeys and non-competitors, but it is very evident that you are....as Louis Lamour would say, "Too swole up on yourself!"

I am a competitor and have been since February, 1997. I can't speak for others, but I know Andy well and consider him a friend. If I knew your name, I would look you up at a match and we could discuss competition-type shooting and other related topics.

If I was out of line with my posts, then I am sorry....which I have told Andy. If you are out of line, maybe you should do the same for those that you refer to as keyboard jockeys. Your attitude is that if we don't conform to your standards of competition, then we should not be allowed to post on this forum. Good shooting..... James Mock (my real name).
Click to expand...

James, you are entitled to your opinion. However, it may change if you understand I was not talking about or referring to you in any of my comments. I did not find what you said to be insulting or disrespectful. As for me apologizing to the keyboard jockey's, don't hold your breath. They know who they are, and they know how I feel about their charade. I think they owe Andy an apology.

Also, you are wrong about my attitude. My feeling has nothing to do with meeting standards, it simply has a basis that the source of info come from the source. If you were to ask a CPA about your taxes, wouldn't you want your CPA to know the law and also have the certification part of the CPA? Similarly, if I'm a newbie to the game and I want to know more about it, I'd rather get my answers from the guy who plays the game rather than just from the guy who read the manual.:)
 
Last edited:
AKA,

My comments were not directed at you either. However, I think you need to understand that there are certain things you can't fully understand unless you are actually right in the middle of them. You can read books, you can ask buddies, you can watch from the sidelines, but it isn't the same thing as actually walking the mile in those shoes.
There is nothing wrong about conversing with the man who has the shoes on, in fact, it's a good thing. But when you start arguing with the man about how he walked in those shoes, or telling him you know more than he does because you read a manual on how to wear those shoes, that's where things go bad in my opinion. I'm not saying that is what you intended or what you were doing, I'm simply saying that more smart guys willing to share their knowledge might do so if they knew they weren't going to be insulted or argued with for doing so.:)
 
Last edited:
I stop reading at the "Elitism" thingie.....
GG is too busy on the key board to shoot................

See the rest of yall at the NBRSA Nationals. Holton, MI.
 
zippy06 said:
.

I stop reading at the "Elitism" thingie....
GG is too busy on the key board to shoot................

.
Click to expand...

SHeesh Zip, didn't figure you'd buy into that bad stock. :(:eek:


Ok, I retract my suggestion for this sub-forum. Lets just let anyone and everyone on here with a keyboard and a pulse answer every question like they are experts at something they've never done. Who cares about authenticity or the validity of regurgitated second-hand information? We don't need no stinking real competitors here to help! Gripe with people like Andy who share personal experience and are the real deal. We need another redundant "shooting" forum on the net for guys who have 10,000 posts per day so they can come here and make themselves feel important! It's much more fun dealing with bickering and insults anyway. How foolish I was for wanting something else! Sorry I suggested it.....Carry on.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top