1000 yd flags......

i am playing by the current rules..they are posted at the top. is it because you cant learn anything new or just because you dont want someone to have more info than you ???
100% in compliance with the current rules...ibs rules.
the good news is your narrow minded opinion is not in charge....so go whine somewhere else.
do what your mommy told you...if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything it all.
or some people may think you are not real bright, but when you open your mouth...you prove them right.
mike in co
Well, if he insists on flags, we'll probably get one more rule in 1KBR. In short range, the height of any individually set flag has to be below a line running from the top of the bench to the bottom of the target. If they are taller, the range officer goes and remove them. And even with rotation, until an aggregate is over, you may NOT go forward and attend your flags, so they stay on the ground.

So . . . if you try & get 'em "where the bullet is," they wind up on the ground real fast -- before the first shot.

I would imagine that first complaint from any 1K competitor, that's the rule that will be put in place. Flags set by the range officials (the club) are different.

Why the rule, you ask? "Because the damn things are in my way" was probably the first reply. "It's a rule" is all it takes today -- or an "errant" sighter shot . . .
 
thats kinda my idea...not to run and gun...to try and observe the conditions, to shoot in the same or similar conditions. my opinion is that by have more flags i can id similar conditions.
thanks
mike in co

Mike,
Then those run and gun guys are making the second fatal error that almost all 1000yd shooters go through. After trying to pick through conditions as rookies, they figure "hey if I just shoot faster I'll shoot smaller gropus and win". And they do shoot smaller groups and they do win... some.

But if they would simply slow down thier "run and gun" method and watch the wind and mirage ALL THROUGH THEIR RECORD STRING you can hold for smaller changes and and instead of shooting a decent 7" or 8" group fast... you now have a 5" or 6" group that took 10 seconds longer to shoot, by not letting that little pickup or let-off string your group out.

THAT right there is the essense of the top level shooters in this game IMO. It takes disipline to slow down a good tracking HG and pick your way through a semi-fast string. When I started doing that I starting agg'ing a lot better. But the last match at Butner my HG was tracking so good and my bench technique was smooth enough that I raced through the 10 shot string. Ended up the first one done shooting with an 11" group that bleed 3 or 4 shots out the left side. most other good shooters in that relay shot 8 to 9" I think it was. So what did getting done shooting first gain me? ...nothing.

I know a lot of guy believe run and gun is the only way go. I don't sign up to that theory. But slow shooting and picking at 1000yds has never worked yet for rookies or accomplished shooters. And a whole bunch of wind flags only complicate things in my book.

The last time I shot at Byers the guy on my bench that fired right before me had one of those digital wind meters in front of the bench... it ended up in the hortizontal position when the wind picked up during our record string in one of my relays. So what good was it? I won that relay with a 8" group and a low 90s score I think it was. My crosshairs were not on anything paper when I pulled the trigger for those 10 shots. The boys inside the scoring shed had to hold down the targets being measured becasue the wind was blowing them around inside the building. Byers is an honest range and 20' wind flags in your shooting lane isn't going to help you.
It's fine to think outside the box, but don't plug your ears and yell la la la la when you have decades worth of 1000yd experience telling you something on a message board to help you out. Joe Salt is probably the man here with the most seniority (spelling??). I know he already had 10yrs experience when I started attending matches at the PA 1000yd club in the early 80's. And I have fired with and next to almost everyone that has repsonded to your post. Nobody is giving you bum scoop. But your barking up the wrong tree. Thinking outside the box is what BR shooters should be doing.... but remove your earplugs when you walk away from the bench and you might hear some good advice.

This was all said with the best of intentions. So take it for what you will.

Donavan and Ray... hopefully see you out west sometime soon again.

Joe, hopefully see you this summer.

Steve
 
so tell Oh great one...how many complaints did they get at butner with THIER TALL FLAGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RANGE.....?????
i love the gentlemanly sportsmanship you bring to this forum.
you you honestly think your poor skills could put shots thru 1/2" steel pipe at 600 yards.....not.
the good news is most of the idiots are still in pa, not in the west.
mike in co
Well, if he insists on flags, we'll probably get one more rule in 1KBR. In short range, the height of any individually set flag has to be below a line running from the top of the bench to the bottom of the target. If they are taller, the range officer goes and remove them. And even with rotation, until an aggregate is over, you may NOT go forward and attend your flags, so they stay on the ground.

So . . . if you try & get 'em "where the bullet is," they wind up on the ground real fast -- before the first shot.

I would imagine that first complaint from any 1K competitor, that's the rule that will be put in place. Flags set by the range officials (the club) are different.

Why the rule, you ask? "Because the damn things are in my way" was probably the first reply. "It's a rule" is all it takes today -- or an "errant" sighter shot . . .
 
Mike I'm just trying to get through you'er head, that there is no one way of doing this, you will have to find what is right for you. But like I said you have to decide if you want to watch the flages, run and gun,( can't do that ,I fumble) smooth and easy,(Rhythm) but you still have to guess what to do after your last sighter shot, do I click do I hold. I'm not trying to be an ass, just some real world suggestions!
Thanks Steve hope to see you also, for sure at the Nationals.

Joe Salt
 
First off, since when are we allowed to "request a bench" for any reason...bench assignments must be drawn.

Under IBS rules a person draws a bench and 2 (or maybe its 3) additional shooters may request the same bench for equipment sharing purposes.

I would assume NBRSA has something similar.
 
What I don't understand is, for a guy who knows everything, why the hell does mike ask so many questions?

The other thing I don't see is why so many folks are nice to this guy when the above is an example of what you get.

I'm sure he'll be a driving force in 1k soon! :rolleyes:
 
Under IBS rules a person draws a bench and 2 (or maybe its 3) additional shooters may request the same bench for equipment sharing purposes.

I would assume NBRSA has something similar.

So why was that not allowed at the last three IBS 1000 yard national events? You could request to not be on the same relay, but you may end up shooting 7 benches down, three relays later. You had to move your equipment.

The reason I have some concern about this ruling is that I have a 12 year old that is becoming VERY interested in shooting. I have taken him to three mid range f class shoots. He is a wind reader (musta got that from his mom :confused:) and I'm guessing spanked about 75% of the adult's ass's in some tough , switchy conditions. He is just not big enough and experianced enough to move and set up his own equipment, and my range is still under water, so we can't even get to my benches to practice. He is able to do pit duty, which was why I didn't bring him last year...the last thing I wanted to happen is to have him pulling for one of the top shooters gunning for a record and messing up. Knowing him, that would end his shooting career on the spot.

Mike,

As far as flags....I say the more the marrier....just down below the bench to target level. And while you are setting them up that way, set a couple up for me to. At my range I have set up flags every 100 yards up to and including 1200 yards...could see every one of them. Ok...my flags are nothing more than survayors tape on a piece of lath, but I can get a sence of what is going on. The problem was that more times than not I had at least 6 differant readings at the same time, as my range is east and west and runs through two differant north - south shelterbelts and along another that has some holes in it. After while I just put one up at the bench and one at the target....maybe one mid range. It is just to much info for me to soak in durring battle. My brother, who was a fighter pilot explained..."your mind has the ability to process millions of bits of info a second, but when the fights on, that million gets reduced down to one or two.....kind of a mental tunnel vision". That is why the big push for simpler and simpler cockpits. My "heat of battle" is the last 30 seconds of the sighter period till the ceace fire command after the match. I start the 6 min sighter period thinking about my gear setup, wind, bag technique, more wind, comfort, checking ammo...ect,ect....lots of stuff. As the sighter period clock counts down I start thinking about less and less things. People complain about shooting next to loud, obnoxious ,breaked magnums.....after about the first 4 min of the sigher period they just plain cease to exist to me. The last 30 seconds is ALL ABOUT THE WIND...PERIOD. I may shoot 5 sighters in the last 30 seconds. When the "fire when ready" command is givin there is only one thought.......smoothspeed. Now if a MAJOR WIND CHANGE HAPPENS I will take notice. But at least half of the time i actualy HURT my self by trying to outsmart the change......:mad:.

The reason for all of this "tunnel vision" is because I am very compeditive...and I want to win, so I get a little nervous. My thoughts are you will be too, and there is a HUGE differance between sitting behind the line watching conditions and being behind the gun watching conditions. Try and actualy SHOOT a match...get to know how things go while at the bench, weather or not you get nervous or not, weather that switch you saw (or think you saw) actually happened based on what is on your target.

Anyway...like what was stated above...not trying to be an ass...just trying to give some real world perspective based on actual experiance.

Good luck.
 
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thanks to all that have been helpful wiht thier positive inputs.


mike in co
 
we have hit a touchy area now

Where a lot of this confusion is coming from with bench requests, bench rotation, and lfag placement is that when the rulebook was reorganized several years ago these "tournament" rule were consolidated into the front of the rulebook to be applied to all disiplines. It use ot be all 1000yd stuff was in the 1000yd section, group was in the group section, etc etc. But during the re-org sort of speaking some of the consolidation of rules are mis-applied. And i think we have hit on one of those instances.

BUT... and without writing a book, some of these details are/were written for short range stuff and have never applied to LR stuff. BUT... it is now in the rulebook that way to be applied to all disiplines. The reason for bench selection in short rnage BR is so that lefties can share a common bench and guys that want to share flags can request a bench and each member of that "team" get assigned to a different relay on that bench. This works great for short range setup.

But can not be applied to LR BR match formats because your relay assignment in an aggregate match (i.e. a National Championship match) is important enough to determine whether you finish top 10 or bottom 10. Relay assignment is everything in LR BR. You get lucky to be assigned to a good condition relay you will agg good, if your unlucky to draw bad relays, your "peeing in the wind". I don't care if you have a rilfe cappable of shooting a world record group.

One example I can give because it happened to me: 2005 1000yd Nationals I was randomly assigned by the computer to the last HG relay for both days of competition. The winning groups and scores for both of those relays was the worst winning groups and scores and the worse overall avg groups and score for the whole relay for both days. I was shooting for the bottom 10 places no matter what I did. And that is exactly where I finished also. I think a 12" group won that relay on day 1 as compared to the relay winners with 4", 5", and 6" groups for the other relays. Try outshooting a 5" agg when you shot your butt off to get a 12" the day before and win your relay. It won't happen.

No rules were broken when this happened to me and nobody has heard me ever complain about it until just now. and I only say it now to show the importance of relay assignements for LR BR and how benches can't be requested to share flags because then it directly affects relay assignments. The way the rulebook is now written clouds these waters.

This is something that needs to be addressed in the rule book IMO and shooters need to quit digging their heels into the sand and arguing to the nth degree over this stuff also. This change in the rulebook wasn't done to intenionally mess with anyone. We all know it was someone volunteering their time to make it happen and somethings were overlooked due to various reasons.

Also this only applied to IBS rulebook.

Steve
 
Also this only applied to IBS rulebook.
But Steve, your example applies everywhere. The whole thing of "Special cases" for "Special Case People", tends to do nothing more than make more special case people. Sorta like govt handouts. The more of em you have, the more people you find who want one.

I wonder how early a person has to arrive to set up flags over a half a mile of range... And not hold up the match...
 
Steve and 4Mesh The PA. club has fixed flags the club has put out it's self, meaning board members.Don't see any rules on flags being put out. We have had people put up smaller flags or streamers, but they were told not to be put in the line of sight or bullet path. Ours larger flags are to the sides were they can't be hit or seen, there is one at 600 yards that is below the line of sight. I still think my Idea of the smudge pots is the way to go, that will show you all you need to know.(SMOKE)

Joe Salt
 
steve,,,,
i would say there was an problem with the program if you were assigned the same relay twice....

the program should not allow the same relay on the following day.....just as you found out it is unresonable.
this would make me believe it was also possible to get the best relay two days in a row.....also should not be possible.....

so step one would be to get the program fixed as while it is "random" it is not reasonable.
everyone on relay one day one , should be in a drawing for all relays but relay one on day two. and on and on....

mike in co
 
the point was missed...

Mike (and others),
I used the example to show how important relay assignment really is for LR BR matches. The point being the way the IBS rulebook is currently written it is applying a shortrange BR rule to LR format and that should have never been the case.

Now we have people here asking why this "bench sharing rule" wasn't applied to the Nationals over the last couple of years. Others are arguing over flag placement and how high they can be etc etc. And everyone is arguing this on the basis of applying it to 1000yd competition and these are short-range BR rules and have been for years. NOT 1000yd. That is point of my last post.


About the only thing that can continue to be discussed is flag placement and if a set of 20' flags are really worth putting out for 1000yd competition.
FYI: One time when I was at Byers there was a stoppage of the match to go move a flag because a particular left-handed shooter (read me..) was looking right at a large wind flag that kicked up into my line of sight when a right to left wind came through. That flag was on the 900yd berm. So getting flags that don't interfere with your and other competitors LOS can be an issue. FYI: That flag was moved but I could still see it in my scope when firing and it didn't tell me nothing about the left to right wind at the targets that was the predominate wind. Had to shoot mirage to pick that wind up.


4mesh,
don't get me started on gov't handouts!!

Steve
 
Under IBS rules a person draws a bench and 2 (or maybe its 3) additional shooters may request the same bench for equipment sharing purposes.

Well it appears I am incorrect (again) in that section III (Tournament Procedures) can in fact be superseded by section VII (Long Range). It did not use to be that way but there is a statement that clearly covers the situation now. I was involved in the writing of the equipment sharing rule and it was intended to cover all IBS matches, however this was before we even adopted Long Range as a discipline

I thank the members of the IBS long range Committee who set me straight.

Dick Grosbier
 
Dick,
Please elaborate.
The way I read the rules it looks like it is up to the individual club as to how benches are assigned. I also don't see where a random draw is a requirement in the Long Range rules even though it makes sence to have the benches and relays assigned randomly.

James
 
i read them the same as you....
strictly up to the club

mike in co
Dick,
Please elaborate.
The way I read the rules it looks like it is up to the individual club as to how benches are assigned. I also don't see where a random draw is a requirement in the Long Range rules even though it makes sence to have the benches and relays assigned randomly.

James
 
ok got to use the flag today.
( a couple of things. yes there were berms at 600...so i only put up a 10' flag and it was put down about 2' so actually an 8 ft flag)
i put the flag up by myself. right at the position marker at 600 yds....that put the post in the middle of my target, and no time to fix. i shot on my own bench as we had an odd number of shooters. if i put the flag in the middle of the shooting position...it will be in the way of a right handed shooter.....the results of the narrow angle of the right and left sides of the bench and target at 1000 yd....the answer is very simple next time i will put the flag to the left of the marker by a foot and it will be on my target but should not be in the way of a right handed shooter. also i had made this flag large as i only have a 25x scope. the scope power changed on saturday when the people at bulz.eye.pro sent me a 3x optical booster.)
yes it works.
have you ever heard of laminar layers ??
in fluid flow, the fluid closest to the sides of a pipe move slower than the fluid in the middle.
my flag a 600yds showed this was true on the range...short flags a maybe 3 feet show a direction and a wind speed...(tail angle), but my flag sitting higher showed more wind speed.
so i will shoot with it at least once more.
the flag needs to be a bit higher as it did block part of the target FRAME.

mike in co
fixed spelling
 
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