Turbo V-3 Upgrade --- Hot Off the Press

I've been shooting a Turbo V-3 with the Mod installed this week and it seems to be doing OK.

I'm checking the spring daily for "set". I have it on good authority that should not happen. But I'll keep checking anyway.

I plan to take rifle to a couple of matches this weekend.

If you happen to be at Wilson's or Fairchance in Pa. this weekend you are welcome to take a look.

TKH

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Anthony DiOrio V-3 new action developement

Anthony Diorio has brought something new to the three lug rimfire action ignition world. I bought a couple of the new DiOrio actions which will give superior case head penetration, increased firing pin spring life and reduced bolt lift effort in a three lug action. I usually keep my firing travel at .205". Anthony told me to start with .160” firing pin travel. I did so. At the range I caught ten Eley fired cases. The average case head penetration of these cases was .0319" (I expect to move the firing pin travel back to 145-ish to get average case head penetration of around .020-.030”) The bolt lift effort of these new V-3 actions is 30% less than my prior V-3 actions. Part of this reduction in bolt lift effort is due to Anthony’s change in the geometry of the cocking ramps. The other part is the reduction in spring compression length of .060” (.205-.145=60) The spring itself has had several treatments to improve its life. Obviously spring life will not be certain for several years but we should be pleased by the spring life. There have some posts on the internet wherein a speaker said that Anthony’s approach would not work. As my Dad used to say ”One test trumps ten thousand expert opinions. Lawrence Beasley
 
Lawrence Beasle said:
Anthony Diorio has brought something new to the three lug rimfire action ignition world. I bought a couple of the new DiOrio actions which will give superior case head penetration, increased firing pin spring life and reduced bolt lift effort in a three lug action. I usually keep my firing travel at .205". Anthony told me to start with .160” firing pin travel. I did so. At the range I caught ten Eley fired cases. The average case head penetration of these cases was .0319" (I expect to move the firing pin travel back to 145-ish to get average case head penetration of around .020-.030”) The bolt lift effort of these new V-3 actions is 30% less than my prior V-3 actions. Part of this reduction in bolt lift effort is due to Anthony’s change in the geometry of the cocking ramps. The other part is the reduction in spring compression length of .060” (.205-.145=60) The spring itself has had several treatments to improve its life. Obviously spring life will not be certain for several years but we should be pleased by the spring life. There have some posts on the internet wherein a speaker said that Anthony’s approach would not work. As my Dad used to say ”One test trumps ten thousand expert opinions. Lawrence Beasley
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Lawrence,

Thank you for your post. I am still testing the new mod in a V3. Our observations seem to be the same.

At this point I can certainly say I have seen no downside to the mod. But how long it will hold up will only be learned as time goes by.

With all that has been said about springs lately I know what I'm about to say will be challenged.

But it is my desire to keep this site as helpful and accurate as possible.

Springs, all springs have a cycle life, and they are dying from the time they are put into use. There is no workable application that requires a coil spring to be 100% compressed. All (3) spring makers I have spoken to say 30% or less compression is desired.

A larger spring worked less will last longer than a smaller spring worked harder. From a mechanical point of view, it is obvious the 40X SAP type actions with their larger springs should and do last longer in their working environment than PAS springs in a similar environment.

Our application of a firing pin spring, (coil springs) is different from most coil spring applications. Our firing pin springs suffer a shock every time the trigger is pulled. Most coil springs simply work up and down with a load but without the shock. This shock works to kill our springs at a different rate than a trapped spring simply being cycled. And of course, we don't have a heat issue.

Understanding this is critical to understanding why Di Orio has spent so much time to make the working environment as friendly as possible for a properly designed firing pin spring.

There was a time not long ago one could set up the ignition for a Turbo or Turbo clone with a Pepper spring and it would fire the chisel shaped firing pin for a good long time before failure. Most shooter could get years out of them. My formula was to change the spring when it got shorter than 2 inches in length. Seemed to work for me.

That changed when the crescent shaped pin became popular. If a chisel is as good, or better, than a crescent is another argument all together not for this discussion.

For quite a while now I've been able to set up Turbo ignition with a crescent pin and have it work well. When I say well, I don't just mean fire the round with consistent ignition, I also mean have an acceptable bolt lift.

But I also understand this is not a one and done situation. If the action is worked enough it will change over time. I shoot nearly every day my decay rate may differ from yours.

I believe there is a sweet spot and I want to stay in that sweet spot, especially when I compete. I want to know when to expect failure to occur so I can get out ahead of it.

I will continue to shoot the mod until it starts to fail. Who knows, it may out last me and that would be a good thing, just not from my perspective.

Many don't believe in penetration test. But that may be the first-place potential failure shows up. Oh yes, it also shows up on the target but how many matches will one lose before they properly diagnose the problem?

I realize this is a small crumb. Maybe not worth the time and effort. But I am very happy that Anthony Di Orio has taken the time to address this issue. Who knows, it may be bigger than we think!

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
Lawrence,

Thank you for your post. I am still testing the new mod in a V3. Our observations seem to be the same.

At this point I can certainly say I have seen no downside to the mod. But how long it will hold up will only be learned as time goes by.

With all that has been said about springs lately I know what I'm about to say will be challenged.

But it is my desire to keep this site as helpful and accurate as possible.

Springs, all springs have a cycle life, and they are dying from the time they are put into use. There is no workable application that requires a coil spring to be 100% compressed. All (3) spring makers I have spoken to say 30% or less compression is desired.

A larger spring worked less will last longer than a smaller spring worked harder. From a mechanical point of view, it is obvious the 40X SAP type actions with their larger springs should and do last longer in their working environment than PAS springs in a similar environment.

Our application of a firing pin spring, (coil springs) is different from most coil spring applications. Our firing pin springs suffer a shock every time the trigger is pulled. Most coil springs simply work up and down with a load but without the shock. This shock works to kill our springs at a different rate than a trapped spring simply being cycled. And of course, we don't have a heat issue.

Understanding this is critical to understanding why Di Orio has spent so much time to make the working environment as friendly as possible for a properly designed firing pin spring.

There was a time not long ago one could set up the ignition for a Turbo or Turbo clone with a Pepper spring and it would fire the chisel shaped firing pin for a good long time before failure. Most shooter could get years out of them. My formula was to change the spring when it got shorter than 2 inches in length. Seemed to work for me.

That changed when the crescent shaped pin became popular. If a chisel is as good, or better, than a crescent is another argument all together not for this discussion.

For quite a while now I've been able to set up Turbo ignition with a crescent pin and have it work well. When I say well, I don't just mean fire the round with consistent ignition, I also mean have an acceptable bolt lift.

But I also understand this is not a one and done situation. If the action is worked enough it will change over time. I shoot nearly every day my decay rate may differ from yours.

I believe there is a sweet spot and I want to stay in that sweet spot, especially when I compete. I want to know when to expect failure to occur so I can get out ahead of it.

I will continue to shoot the mod until it starts to fail. Who knows, it may out last me and that would be a good thing, just not from my perspective.

Many don't believe in penetration test. But that may be the first-place potential failure shows up. Oh yes, it also shows up on the target but how many matches will one lose before they properly diagnose the problem?

I realize this is a small crumb. Maybe not worth the time and effort. But I am very happy that Anthony Di Orio has taken the time to address this issue. Who knows, it may be bigger than we think!

TKH
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Top fuel and really high rpm engines, even Nascar, with sustained but lower rpm... have suffered from valve spring failure related to harmonics for a long time. Anthony might be on to something. I'm not sure it's as much the "shock" you mention but still, maybe. I won't dismiss it as a possibility. I agree with your post for the most part. Coming from the racing industry(many years ago now), I agree with the compression and possibly the shock or harmonic aspect maybe having merit. It's a stretch...no pun intended...but maybe. How much of it can be solved by simply replacing a spring every season, approximately?
 
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30% would be fantastic to us but the spring rate Tad wants causes compression to be slightly above that. Further away from coil bind on a set up that is consistent and the depth a person is looking for, the better.

Todd
 
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Spring Degradation

I like the direction of Anthony's new action because it compresses the spring less than prior Turbo products. I have for years tried to monitor (manage?) spring degradation by catching a few fired case every time I go to the range and measure them for case head penetration. Sounds a bit obsessive but it is my opinion that all springs degrade. I want to ensure that I never put my rifle on the rest while wondering if the spring should have been changed. Lawrence Beasley
 
Update on Turbo V-3 Gen II

I have a new Turbo V-3 Gen II with about 1,400 rounds through it. The firing pin travel is now set at .139". I recently shot some Lapua and Eley ammo at the range. The Eley had an average crescent firing pin penetration of .0239" with an extreme spread of .0008". The Lapua had an average crescent firing pin penetration of .0251" with an extreme spread of .0004".* Anthony DiOrio (from his work with the US shooting team) told me that minimum penetration should never drop below .018".* The .018" is the gap in the case rim that is filled with priming compound.* That .018" must be completely crushed by the firing pin.* Any amount of penetration in excess .018" is wasted.* Penetration less than .018" does not provide the maximum brisance designed by the cartridge engineer. So far the firing pin spring has shown no sign of degradation. Minimum penetration at .139 firing pin travel has been .0234" although only time will answer the degradation question. However I plan to shorten the pin travel to .125"?? to see if I can get the minimum penetration in the .0200" range. It seems intuitive that moving the firing pin travel from .205" down to .125" should reduce spring degradation. Lawrence Beasley
 
Lock Time in the V-3 GenII

I don't know for sure how the design of the new V-3 GenII will affect lock time. However, it seems to me that a firing pin that travels .125" after release should have quicker lock time than a firing pin that must travel .205" after release. Anthony DiOrio once told me that lock time is not very important in the benchrest rimfire sport but that P-3 shooters care a great deal about lock time. I've forgotten why. Thanks Lawrence Beasley.
 
Lawrence Beasle said:
I don't know for sure how the design of the new V-3 GenII will affect lock time. However, it seems to me that a firing pin that travels .125" after release should have quicker lock time than a firing pin that must travel .205" after release. Anthony DiOrio once told me that lock time is not very important in the benchrest rimfire sport but that P-3 shooters care a great deal about lock time. I've forgotten why. Thanks Lawrence Beasley.
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Sorry, I thought you meant you were shortening the pin. How are you going to reduce the travel?

Gerry
 
Lawrence Beasle said:
I have a new Turbo V-3 Gen II with about 1,400 rounds through it. The firing pin travel is now set at .139". I recently shot some Lapua and Eley ammo at the range. The Eley had an average crescent firing pin penetration of .0239" with an extreme spread of .0008". The Lapua had an average crescent firing pin penetration of .0251" with an extreme spread of .0004".* Anthony DiOrio (from his work with the US shooting team) told me that minimum penetration should never drop below .018".* The .018" is the gap in the case rim that is filled with priming compound.* That .018" must be completely crushed by the firing pin.* Any amount of penetration in excess .018" is wasted.* Penetration less than .018" does not provide the maximum brisance designed by the cartridge engineer. So far the firing pin spring has shown no sign of degradation. Minimum penetration at .139 firing pin travel has been .0234" although only time will answer the degradation question. However I plan to shorten the pin travel to .125"?? to see if I can get the minimum penetration in the .0200" range. It seems intuitive that moving the firing pin travel from .205" down to .125" should reduce spring degradation. Lawrence Beasley
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Lawrence,

We are on similar paths and our experience so far looks to be the same. I have shot nearly as many rounds as you and I have not found the spring to be changing at all. I also agree that we are working the spring less therefore should expect longer life.

Since we have less firing pin fall and a stronger spring, I'm sure lock time is reduced.

Lock time for a rifle being shot from a rest isn't extremely important, not like it is for a handheld rifle that is nearly always in motion.

At this point I think the mod is a success. The bolt feels lighter, it has proven capable of driving the crescent firing pin, and it looks like the spring will have a long working life.

I know many are wondering if the mod will improve accuracy. I think the best answer is it may in an indirect way.

Meaning: The mod makes the action easier to operate. That alone may allow a shooter to focus more of his/her attention on the target and flags.

Please keeps us updated as you gain experience with your Gen. 2 actions.

TKH
 
analretentive said:
Sorry, I thought you meant you were shortening the pin. How are you going to reduce the travel?

Gerry
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Gerry,

Firing pin travel is reduced because the trigger hangar is moved forward allowing the trigger sears to pick up the trigger transfer bar in a more forward position. Easier to see than to explain.

Most actions fitted with trigger hangars allow one to move the hangar back and forth slightly. Larger movements can be made by turning the hangar around in the other direction. Although one may think there isn't much movement it can have quite an effect on firing pin fall. This movement is sometimes termed as "Trigger timing".

Actions with pinned triggers cannot be adjusted this way.

TKH
 
Gerry - Changing Firing Pin Travel

Changing Firing Pin Travel

The ultimate object is to precisely measure the depth of the of the firing pin indentation in the case head. I collect fired cases at the range by catching them as they are ejected. At home I measure the penetration depth of each case. My goal is to ensure that the minimum indentation of all cases measured is never less than .018”. At .018” the firing pin will have crushed 100% of the priming compound in the case rim. At .018” indentation you will never have a failure-to-fire especially with the Turbo crescent firing pin. My goal for the upper indentation range is .020-.021”. If not enough case head indentation – more firing pin travel is needed. If too much indentation – reduce firing pin travel. What’s wrong with too much indentation/firing pin travel. An unnecessary amount of firing pin travel causes excessive spring compression and thereby unnecessary spring degradation.

What is your pin travel now? Clamp a barreled action (by the barrel) in a small padded vise (paper towel padding). You are looking for the distance that the firing pin travels from when the bolt is cocked to when the bolt is stopped after a live round is fired. Do not remove the fired round from the action. Obviously, be careful here. I usually shoot the live round in the garage. The dimensions for which you are looking are from the rear bottom of the bolt to the end of the tang (both cocked and after a live round has been fired but remains in the chamber). I use an inexpensive depth “micrometer” I got from Amazon for $22.00. Subtract the cocked dimension from the forward dimension of the fired case still in the chamber. Now you have a dimension that exactly defines firing pin travel.

Now go to the range and collect at least ten pieces of fired brass (not from the ground) but catch them as they come out of the ejection port. Collect them from one lot near the end of your shooting session. Measuring the firing pin indentations accurately is important in this exercise since that depth is what we are trying to control. I hope I can attach a photo of the rig I use but I will try to describe it. Make a fixture possibly from the chamber of a dead barrel where the fired case can be inserted until flush into the fixture. I tap the inserted case very lightly with a small fiberglass hammer. I bought an inexpensive 6”x 6” piece of granite with a .963” post fixed into the granite. There is an adapter that slides up/down the post and allows a digital dial gauge to be attached. A pointed end adapter is needed. With a fired case in the fixture, put the pointed end adapter at the opposite side from the firing pin indentation. Then zero the dial indicator. Carefully slide the point across the case head into the indentation and find the deepest point of the indication. Repeat for your other nine cases. Capture the 1) Average penetration 2) Max penetration 3) Min penetration and 4) Extreme spread. Now you know if you need more or less pin travel.

Adjusting pin travel. Rotate the barreled action 180° until the trigger is pointing straight up. With the depth micrometer measure the distance from the rear of the trigger hanger to the end of the tang. Firing pin travel is adjusted by loosening the two screws holding the trigger hanger in place. Loosen the two hanger screws and slide the trigger hanger fore and aft. Hanger to the rear increases trigger travel. Forward trigger hanger decreases pin travel. If you want to increase pin travel by .020” look to the dimension you recorded from the rear of the hangar to the end of the tang. If it were .600” subtract .020” to get .580” (remember rearward hangar movement increases pin travel). Rotate your barreled action 180° and check firing pin travel again. It should be .020” greater than when you first checked. Getting to the exact number you seek is quite an iterative endeavor but well worth it. Lawrence Beasley
 
Lawrence are you also using a bix n andy trigger? I've tried both a flavio and jewell and they both won't cock?
Thanks
 
I should rephrase that they will start to cock but bolt handle won't close. If I slide the hanger forward in the slots they both will cock all the way but the pin strike isn't very good. I ordered a bix as tony has suggested earlier in this thread.
 
Bp0928 said:
I should rephrase that they will start to cock but bolt handle won't close. If I slide the hanger forward in the slots they both will cock all the way but the pin strike isn't very good. I ordered a bix as tony has suggested earlier in this thread.
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If you require assistance/guidance with setting up your receiver and trigger, you can call 540-438-1870 and we will be happy to help. What you have explained is a trigger timing issue and not a trigger brand issue.

Best Regards, Anthony DiOrio
 
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