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Thread: dazed and confused

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    861

    dazed and confused

    i shoot a 204 vapor trail using rl23 at 2900 fps from a 32" bbl in long range br. my 300 wsm adg brass has been fired 4 times..and now most will not resize !
    same load same number of firings, always annealed.
    i have both a wilson threaded bushing fl die, and a bullet central micron die.
    out of 20 pc only 2 will allow a stripped bolt to close with almost no resistance.
    imperial sizing wax
    all load development was done on other brass, this is match brass only. weight sorted, neck turned.. clicking at 3rd firing, so i bought the micron die.
    is it toast??
    match chamber done by a known gunsmith, krieger bbl
    help

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    633

    quick question

    Annealed to what temperature?
    By what method do you show what temperature has been achieved?
    Centerfire

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    861
    amp machine, actually tests and sets based on that lot.
    its neck and shoulder...nowhere near the base
    Quote Originally Posted by Centerfire View Post
    Annealed to what temperature?
    By what method do you show what temperature has been achieved?
    Centerfire

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,037
    Since few seems to be willing to offer possible solutions, I'll chance making a fool of myself and give it a try. First, I will admit to never having any experience with that cartridge. But in every situation involving bolt click it had to do with a mismatched chamber & die. Since you said this was a "match" chamber, I'm thinking that means it is tighter than SAAMI. IME- bolt click shows up when the chamber is so tight, the die can't reduce the base. I don't know if FB offers a ring die for that case, but that would be where I would look first. Failing that and not knowing any better, I'd probably try polishing the base of the chamber to a few thousandths larger to give the die something to size. I will humbly accept the slings and arrows of those who know better, but that approach as worked well for me on smaller cases like most anything PPC sized.

    Rick

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    9
    Agree with Greyfox. You can try firing the brass that fits and take a measurement at the .200" line in its fired position. Maybe take a headspace measurement now, also. Then size the brass and take the same measurements again. If the base of the case did not size down, you know the die isn't sizing as it should and isn't matched to your chamber. However, if your shoulder didn't bump back any, you may just have to run the die in a little deeper, if possible.

  6. #6
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    Oct 2019
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    ok reamer/chamber is just min spec with a turned neck, a throat for this bullet in the neck not in the case, and short neck length clearance,

    this is a LOW pressure load by the software. we are talking 55kpsi in a 63.8k spec cartridge.

    i have never had brass not resize, this is "premium" brass and low reload count.

    i did nothing yesterday i was so frustrated with the brass.

  7. #7
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    Oct 2019
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    861
    update
    of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
    i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    update
    of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
    i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.
    The brass is very unlikely the problem.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    861
    the chamber and the sizing die , yes ??
    it is a micron die, which i was told was the smallest on the market.
    can anyone recommend a die maker for this cartridge( 300 wsm).

    thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    The brass is very unlikely the problem.

  10. #10
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    Oct 2019
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    861
    ok, talking to JGS today about a sizing die reamer

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    ok, talking to JGS today about a sizing die reamer
    If going to that trouble and expense, why not just get a bigger chamber reamer that works well with standard dies? Seriously, it's about chamber to die relationship that qualifies if the die works well for a given chamber. Seems like it'd be smarter to fix the real issue, which apparently is NOT the die, but the chamber. Am I wrong here? Been doing it this way for several years and it always works for me. The only losers are the custom die makers. Make a chamber that works with either your die, or dies that you can get. Just my 2 cents, though.

    Even with as much grief as Dave Kiff catches,(some of it may well be deserved but that's another subject) he's still a wealth of knowledge in this regard because they make most of the re-size reamers used by most of the common die makers, like Redding and Hornady. So he knows the dimensions for the die and can extrapolate from that, chamber reamer dimensions that will work with that die.

    Been preaching this method for a long time now. It just makes a ton of sense to me and I know it works because I've been doing it for all that time.

    General rule of thumb, at least with ppc/br cases, is use a chamber reamer .003 larger at both the shoulder and the web area of the die. That doesn't mean the sized brass will be that much smaller due to springback. I find 3x fired brass to be sized about .0015 at the shoulder and about .0005-.0006 at the web..after springback. This has proven to work very well. We can split that hair for larger and smaller cartridge diameters etc, but this just works and it works well. No need for custom dies if the chamber is "right".

    This whole thing goes back years to when people often spec'd chamber reamers around virgin brass. That created sizing die issues because noone made dies that would size brass below virgin dimensions, understandably. So, hence a custom die industry was born.

    There are other reasons to buy custom dies but a sizing die has a very simple and easy job to do if it and the chamber are sized to work well with one another. Finish and features of custom dies are nice but totally unnecessary.
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-27-2022 at 08:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    861
    thanks
    BUT
    if my reamer is just min spec...why are there no sizing dies that work??
    i gotta a bunch of custom chambered rifles with min spec chambers, no issues sizing brass..the 300 wsm is the only one.

    ( mr kif and i are having another discussion about a 30br reamer they 'FIXED' so well it is useless to me. it is back in his hands)

    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    If going to that trouble and expense, why not just get a bigger chamber reamer that works well with standard dies? Seriously, it's about chamber to die relationship that qualifies if the die works well for a given chamber. Seems like it'd be smarter to fix the real issue, which apparently is NOT the die, but the chamber. Am I wrong here? Been doing it this way for several years and it always works for me. The only losers are the custom die makers. Make a chamber that works with either your die, or dies that you can get. Just my 2 cents, though.

    Even with as much grief as Dave Kiff catches,(some of it may well be deserved but that's another subject) he's still a wealth of knowledge in this regard because they make most of the re-size reamers used by most of the common die makers, like Redding and Hornady. So he knows the dimensions for the die and can extrapolate from that, chamber reamer dimensions that will work with that die.

    Been preaching this method for a long time now. It just makes a ton of sense to me and I know it works because I've been doing it for all that time.

    General rule of thumb, at least with ppc/br cases, is use a chamber reamer .003 larger at both the shoulder and the web area of the die. That doesn't mean the sized brass will be that much smaller due to springback. I find 3x fired brass to be sized about .0015 at the shoulder and about .0005-.0006 at the web..after springback. This has proven to work very well. We can split that hair for larger and smaller cartridge diameters etc, but this just works and it works well. No need for custom dies if the chamber is "right".

    This whole thing goes back years to when people often spec'd chamber reamers around virgin brass. That created sizing die issues because noone made dies that would size brass below virgin dimensions, understandably. So, hence a custom die industry was born.

    There are other reasons to buy custom dies but a sizing die has a very simple and easy job to do if it and the chamber are sized to work well with one another. Finish and features of custom dies are nice but totally unnecessary.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    update
    of 54 pcs i started with 39 sized ok and the remaining 15 did not successfully size (would not chamber easily on a stripped bolt)
    i have never had bass not size and this aint cheap brass.
    How much are you bumping the shoulders?

  14. #14
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    Oct 2019
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    861
    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    How much are you bumping the shoulders?
    normally between 1 and 2...a stripped bolt free close

    i have won 2 matches with the rifle, one a 600 over all, and 2022 ibs nationals hg score.
    i am not tempted to change the rifle.

  15. #15
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    Is your bolt face flat and square?

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