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Thread: Remington 700 Extraction Issues

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by antelopedundee View Post
    How many smiths who build rifles based on Remington 700 actions actually fix [if they can] or send out bolt handle position and other related items [the 5 steps] as a part of the truing process? Is it always necessary?
    Understand that anything that moves the cam angles away from each other reduces the amount of mechanical extraction.

    -Truing up the internal lug abuttments moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.
    -Facing off the back of the bolt lugs moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.

    Even if you're only talking about a total of .005-.006 total material removed in both operations, the amount of mechanical camming for extraction has been reduced. Since the interfaces of the receiver cam surface and the bolt cam surface are angled, now the mechanical camming 'work' happens across a shorter amount of surface, over a shorter amount of bolt rotation and the bolt has to rotate further 'up' before the camming starts. If the bolt fit is loose in the raceway, this also adds to the issue as the back of the bolt moves upward when opening and the cam angle(s) interface can become further reduced. Spreading out the 'work load' always pays dividends.

    Whether it's "..always necessary", obviously it depends on how much camming the receiver and bolt have before any machining is done. At a minimum, they need to be checked and corrected if needed.

    The late Stan Ware (SGR Custom Rifles) was repositioning bolt handles as part of his 700 work as far back as the late '80's. I have quite a few 700 receivers that Stan massaged...most with enlarged raceways and his one piece bolt sleeve. The 700 receiver for my 250 Ackley didn't require Stan to do any handle repositioning, which was unusual.

    On earlier 700 receivers that had been 'trued up', you can get a basic idea of the camming it had by looking at the gap between the front of the handle and the handle notch in the receiver.

    The later unmodified 700 receivers (in the CNC era) with the notorious 'no cam' issues can't be evaluated this way as the bolt tube itself is different from the earlier bolts. Dan Armstrong has commented on this several times and explained the differences.

    Here's an example of spreading out the load and taking full advantage of the cam angles. The original bolt handle (bottom) on this custom action had only the forward edge as the contact surface to the cam angle on the receiver. You can see in the picture that it had already started to wear the lower edge...which gives a hint. As well, the edge-only contact area on the bolt handle acts to pivot the the handle on the bolt tube, despite it being silver soldered and bolted on. This culminated in the infamous 'Red Hammer Incident' that's still being talked about in our region. Parts, pieces and parts of pieces went everywhere...some are still in the soil forward of the firing line at the Holmen Rod and Gun Club in Holmen, Wisconsin.



    Stan fitted a new handle (top) and profiled it to match the receiver cam angle:





    Here's how it cams after being corrected. This action had multiple other issues that Stan also corrected.





    My 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. Coffee at Wall Drug (Wall, South Dakota) is only 5 cents so my 2 cents just gets you 40%....

    Good shootin' -Al

  2. #17
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Understand that anything that moves the cam angles away from each other reduces the amount of mechanical extraction.

    -Truing up the internal lug abuttments moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.
    -Facing off the back of the bolt lugs moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.

    Even if you're only talking about a total of .005-.006 total material removed in both operations, the amount of mechanical camming for extraction has been reduced. Since the interfaces of the receiver cam surface and the bolt cam surface are angled, now the mechanical camming 'work' happens across a shorter amount of surface, over a shorter amount of bolt rotation and the bolt has to rotate further 'up' before the camming starts. If the bolt fit is loose in the raceway, this also adds to the issue as the back of the bolt moves upward when opening and the cam angle(s) interface can become further reduced. Spreading out the 'work load' always pays dividends.

    Whether it's "..always necessary", obviously it depends on how much camming the receiver and bolt have before any machining is done. At a minimum, they need to be checked and corrected if needed.

    The late Stan Ware (SGR Custom Rifles) was repositioning bolt handles as part of his 700 work as far back as the late '80's. I have quite a few 700 receivers that Stan massaged...most with enlarged raceways and his one piece bolt sleeve. The 700 receiver for my 250 Ackley didn't require Stan to do any handle repositioning, which was unusual.

    On earlier 700 receivers that had been 'trued up', you can get a basic idea of the camming it had by looking at the gap between the front of the handle and the handle notch in the receiver.

    The later unmodified 700 receivers (in the CNC era) with the notorious 'no cam' issues can't be evaluated this way as the bolt tube itself is different from the earlier bolts. Dan Armstrong has commented on this several times and explained the differences.

    Here's an example of spreading out the load and taking full advantage of the cam angles. The original bolt handle (bottom) on this custom action had only the forward edge as the contact surface to the cam angle on the receiver. You can see in the picture that it had already started to wear the lower edge...which gives a hint. As well, the edge-only contact area on the bolt handle acts to pivot the the handle on the bolt tube, despite it being silver soldered and bolted on. This culminated in the infamous 'Red Hammer Incident' that's still being talked about in our region. Parts, pieces and parts of pieces went everywhere...some are still in the soil forward of the firing line at the Holmen Rod and Gun Club in Holmen, Wisconsin.



    Stan fitted a new handle (top) and profiled it to match the receiver cam angle:





    Here's how it cams after being corrected. This action had multiple other issues that Stan also corrected.





    My 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. Coffee at Wall Drug (Wall, South Dakota) is only 5 cents so my 2 cents just gets you 40%....

    Good shootin' -Al
    AAAAaaaaamen to that! I gotta say, that "Red Hammer" pic is GREAT! Time for some BLACK JUICE . . . RG

  3. #18
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    Apr 2017
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    Thanks for the explanation Al. Very informative. The Holmen facility is nearby to my home town of Winona, MN.

    Couple pics of my before and after. The first one was mostly to make sure that I got the scope back in the same place after the work was returned. It was over a year ago when I had the issue, but medical issues intervened so things were delayed into this year. The same loads that gave me trouble last year worked fine after the fix with not even a flattened looking primer.





    Should the extracted case kind of stay in line with the bolt body until it clears into the port area or is it normal for the ejector to start to throw it before that?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by antelopedundee View Post
    Should the extracted case kind of stay in line with the bolt body until it clears into the port area or is it normal for the ejector to start to throw it before that?
    The Remington ejectors will start levering the front of the case sideways as soon as the bolt begins moving rearward. It's common to reduce the spring tension by clipping coils from the stock spring until the case ejects the way you want it to for the intended purpose. Many either remove the ejector completely or substitute a very weak spring that doesn't let the ejector protrude from the face of the bolt. -Al

  5. #20
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    Feb 2003
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    Fbks,Alaska
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    OP,
    There is NOTHING correct on any LH Remington.
    (1/2"-13tpi RH firing pin shroud thread is bass-backwards for proper functionality)

    The handle as pictured is a "Short Cam' bolt handle (2006 to present) as I've coined them.

    Eienstein &/or Houdini are incapable of correctly TIMING said bolt handle w/o replacement or rework.

    Remove the firing pin assy from the bolt body.
    Insert bolt into CLEARED receiver.
    Push bolt forward & let handle/gravity rotate bolt into BATTERY.
    With ONE finger & slight rearward pressure rotate bolt clockwise out of BATTERY.
    When handle's knob is at 9-10oclock the handle primary extraction cam surface should kiss the receiver primary extraction cam surface....you'll have .160" clearance witnessed visually w/ approximately .020"-.030" surface contact between the 2 surfaces for primary extraction.
    Repositioning the handle closer to the receiver is only 1 part of the 5 part equation to properly TIME a bolt/handle to a receiver.

    Forward & aft bolt cycling is feed & eject.
    Bolt rotation is TIMING to include-
    Primary Extraction Cam surfaces
    Bolt lugs to integral lugs
    Firing pin cocking cam
    Bolt body to trigger group striker clearance

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
    Posts
    6,621

    Great info Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Dans40X View Post
    OP,
    There is NOTHING correct on any LH Remington.
    (1/2"-13tpi RH firing pin shroud thread is bass-backwards for proper functionality)

    The handle as pictured is a "Short Cam' bolt handle (2006 to present) as I've coined them.

    Eienstein &/or Houdini are incapable of correctly TIMING said bolt handle w/o replacement or rework.

    Remove the firing pin assy from the bolt body.
    Insert bolt into CLEARED receiver.
    Push bolt forward & let handle/gravity rotate bolt into BATTERY.
    With ONE finger & slight rearward pressure rotate bolt clockwise out of BATTERY.
    When handle's knob is at 9-10oclock the handle primary extraction cam surface should kiss the receiver primary extraction cam surface....you'll have .160" clearance witnessed visually w/ approximately .020"-.030" surface contact between the 2 surfaces for primary extraction.
    Repositioning the handle closer to the receiver is only 1 part of the 5 part equation to properly TIME a bolt/handle to a receiver.

    Forward & aft bolt cycling is feed & eject.
    Bolt rotation is TIMING to include-
    Primary Extraction Cam surfaces
    Bolt lugs to integral lugs
    Firing pin cocking cam
    Bolt body to trigger group striker clearance
    Is there a source for a correct bolt handle?

    Thanks,

    Pete

  7. #22
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Fbks,Alaska
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    428
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    Is there a source for a correct bolt handle?

    Thanks,

    Pete
    Though not manufactured currently, an RWHart handle once a radius was blended out w/ a #6 needle file is/was a perfect fit for a Remington.
    ( I bought all RWHart had in inventory)

    I never assume any handle will TIME correctly.

    Any TIG welder w/ experience(s) & not wasting argon should be capable.
    Last edited by Dans40X; 08-17-2022 at 11:14 PM.

  8. #23
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    washington.........STATE that is.
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    HO'lee Kowww, Thank You Dan!

    DAN and STAN..... you both Da' MAN!

  9. #24
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    washington.........STATE that is.
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  10. #25
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    Apr 2017
    Location
    Ames, Iowa
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    The only 2 cases that I had stuck last year were fired in a 6.5-06AI. It must not be that hard for a case to slip out of an extractor's grip. My notes indicate that the load was a little warm. I had previously fired a couple hundred or so rounds through it with no issue.

  11. #26
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Texas Panhandle
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    1,997
    There are no telling how many 700 bolts Iíve sent to Dan in the past several years to fix the lack of extraction camming that the RR serial numbered actions had. When I get them back from him they are right. With earlier 700 actions, you could make truing cuts on the bolt and receiver lugs and still have plenty of extraction camming. When the 700ís were redesigned for CNC production someone in the re-design process didnít understand what the function of the extraction cam did, and extraction camming suffered.

  12. #27
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    Apr 2017
    Location
    Ames, Iowa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bryant View Post
    There are no telling how many 700 bolts Iíve sent to Dan in the past several years to fix the lack of extraction camming that the RR serial numbered actions had. When I get them back from him they are right. With earlier 700 actions, you could make truing cuts on the bolt and receiver lugs and still have plenty of extraction camming. When the 700ís were redesigned for CNC production someone in the re-design process didnít understand what the function of the extraction cam did, and extraction camming suffered.
    I have 3 of the left hand RR actions. Just one of them seems to have a gap between the front of the bolt handle and the rear of the action similar to the one pictured [bottom pic] after handle relocation. The one pictured [top pic] was the worst of the three.

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Ames, Iowa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Understand that anything that moves the cam angles away from each other reduces the amount of mechanical extraction.

    -Truing up the internal lug abuttments moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.
    -Facing off the back of the bolt lugs moves the angles apart because the bolt is now further rearward.

    Even if you're only talking about a total of .005-.006 total material removed in both operations, the amount of mechanical camming for extraction has been reduced. Since the interfaces of the receiver cam surface and the bolt cam surface are angled, now the mechanical camming 'work' happens across a shorter amount of surface, over a shorter amount of bolt rotation and the bolt has to rotate further 'up' before the camming starts. If the bolt fit is loose in the raceway, this also adds to the issue as the back of the bolt moves upward when opening and the cam angle(s) interface can become further reduced. Spreading out the 'work load' always pays dividends.

    Whether it's "..always necessary", obviously it depends on how much camming the receiver and bolt have before any machining is done. At a minimum, they need to be checked and corrected if needed.

    The late Stan Ware (SGR Custom Rifles) was repositioning bolt handles as part of his 700 work as far back as the late '80's. I have quite a few 700 receivers that Stan massaged...most with enlarged raceways and his one piece bolt sleeve. The 700 receiver for my 250 Ackley didn't require Stan to do any handle repositioning, which was unusual.

    On earlier 700 receivers that had been 'trued up', you can get a basic idea of the camming it had by looking at the gap between the front of the handle and the handle notch in the receiver.

    The later unmodified 700 receivers (in the CNC era) with the notorious 'no cam' issues can't be evaluated this way as the bolt tube itself is different from the earlier bolts. Dan Armstrong has commented on this several times and explained the differences.

    Here's an example of spreading out the load and taking full advantage of the cam angles. The original bolt handle (bottom) on this custom action had only the forward edge as the contact surface to the cam angle on the receiver. You can see in the picture that it had already started to wear the lower edge...which gives a hint. As well, the edge-only contact area on the bolt handle acts to pivot the the handle on the bolt tube, despite it being silver soldered and bolted on. This culminated in the infamous 'Red Hammer Incident' that's still being talked about in our region. Parts, pieces and parts of pieces went everywhere...some are still in the soil forward of the firing line at the Holmen Rod and Gun Club in Holmen, Wisconsin.



    My 2 cents worth, for what it's worth. Coffee at Wall Drug (Wall, South Dakota) is only 5 cents so my 2 cents just gets you 40%....

    Good shootin' -Al
    Hopefully in a few weeks I'll be slammin down some of that 5 cent coffee!

    How many open-close cycles would it take to wear down the cam surfaces to no or almost no contact? 25,000? More? Less? Anyone ever rebarreled an action enough times to wear them out?

  14. #29
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    Just for fun and games I too pics of my other 2 700 RR actions. These are as I got them back from the smith.

    #1 is a .25-06 with something over 200 rounds with nary an issue. The gap between the front of the bolt handle and the rear of the action is about 0.020.



    #2 is a 6.5-06 with zero rounds through it. The gap between the front of the bolt handle and the rear of the action is about 0.008.



    Apparently Remington folks were kind of sloppy about how they put them on.
    Last edited by antelopedundee; 08-20-2022 at 04:46 PM.

  15. #30
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    Feb 2003
    Location
    Fbks,Alaska
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    428
    Op,
    Since you missed it,first time around-

    Per your pics-
    You have post 2006 "SHORT CAM" bolt handles on said bolts, that are approximately.160" OUT of TIME radially.

    The clearance between the handle & rear receiver ring is only ONE part of the equation.
    The above is critical in that if the handle was positioned (fwd/aft) too far forward, the bolt would NOT fit back into the receiver.

    The rotation of the bolt/handle's cam surface facilitates the extraction when the bolt body is rotated out of Battery.

    The bolt HANDLE stops bolt rotation clockwise & counterclockwise.

    Follow the instructions that I previously posted to verify the issue.

    With your current configuration, you have at best 20-25% primary extraction.
    Pushing the bolt fwd is only fooling the owner & is NOT the correct procedure as that is NOT how the bolt/lugs/handle/integrals are oriented after firing said rifle.

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