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Thread: Steel bullet dies?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrxR View Post
    What is your honest opinion on steel dies? I know you have a great reputation for your carbide dies.

    Also any opinion on 7 ogive vs 10 ogive?
    If I thought steel was a better option I would have made steel dies. to me there is more work in steel making reamers and all ... no opinion I do not see the magic in noses shape within reason...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    George, I did not realize they were that hard. That is right up there with most High Speed Steels.
    Graph Mo is the steel of choice....

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by geo.ulrich View Post
    Graph Mo is the steel of choice....
    I never really fooled around with Graph/Mo. I can see the hardening capability with that 1.45% carbon.

    I wonder if, like leaded steels, they actually add the graphite as the steel is poured from the furnace into ingots.

    George, I am in need of a 6mm flatbase core seating die that will handle a 1.150 jacket.

    I adjusted my Rorschach core seater to make flat base core seated jackets, It was just deep enough. I then made a flatbase punch for the 6mm point up die you made for me. What comes out is a 6mm 103 grn flatbase bullet that shoots pretty darned good with a .160 throat.

    I really do not want to keep changing my core seater, as it is in itís on dedicated press and really designed to make 68 grn bullets.

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...&thumb=1&stc=1
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  4. #19
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    A flat based 6mm in that weight range makes so much sense!

    Good stuff. -Al

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrxR View Post
    After seeing Al's post of his bullet testing, I was wondering what the major disadvantages of steel dies are. I'm wanting to get into making my own bullets for my 30BR and am debating between 7ogive or 10ogive using a 1" jacket.

    So what I'm wondering is will a steel die make as good of a bullet as a carbide? How well would they last for someone who is only making their own bullets. I only shoot local club matches and most are shooting 115 Bergers with 2 shooting BiBs which are hard to get here in Canada.

    Is the extra cost of the carbide worth it for someone who will only make less than probably 5000 a year?
    Here's my 2 cents worth on it.

    To start with, there's no way I'd allow myself to be at the mercy of import/export laws to participate in a hobby that I enjoy. Period. That's the hard headed German in me. If I was in Canada, that would mean making my own bullets.

    With a 7 ogive , the options of using either the .925" or 1.00" are both open. And I don't like not having options. The BIB 118 1.00" 10 ogive bullets shoot like the Hammers Of Hell and have a base to ogive in the .325 range. My 7 ogive 1.00" 117's have a base to ogive in the .370 range. A few taps on the calculator tells us the base to ogive on a 10 ogive .925" jacket is going to get pretty short. How short is too short? Darned if I know as I've never been there. Randy could offer some guidance there.

    Steel or carbide? That's a question only you can answer. I'm a believer in starting at the start on things...start with your budget since that's the 900 lb. gorilla in the room. Since great bullets can be made with either, drop everything else in order after that...availability, availability of replacement parts/pieces, delivery time, support, etc.

    Other than occasionally working with Randy's dies when I'm at his place, my practical knowledge of working with carbide dies just brings the needle slightly off the '0' mark on the scale.

    If you go with the Blackmon setup, I'd be happy to offer whatever help I can.

    Is your 30BR up and running?

    Good shootin'. -Al

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Here's my 2 cents worth on it.

    To start with, there's no way I'd allow myself to be at the mercy of import/export laws to participate in a hobby that I enjoy. Period. That's the hard headed German in me. If I was in Canada, that would mean making my own bullets.

    With a 7 ogive , the options of using either the .925" or 1.00" are both open. And I don't like not having options. The BIB 118 1.00" 10 ogive bullets shoot like the Hammers Of Hell and have a base to ogive in the .325 range. My 7 ogive 1.00" 117's have a base to ogive in the .370 range. A few taps on the calculator tells us the base to ogive on a 10 ogive .925" jacket is going to get pretty short. How short is too short? Darned if I know as I've never been there. Randy could offer some guidance there.

    Steel or carbide? That's a question only you can answer. I'm a believer in starting at the start on things...start with your budget since that's the 900 lb. gorilla in the room. Since great bullets can be made with either, drop everything else in order after that...availability, availability of replacement parts/pieces, delivery time, support, etc.

    Other than occasionally working with Randy's dies when I'm at his place, my practical knowledge of working with carbide dies just brings the needle slightly off the '0' mark on the scale.

    If you go with the Blackmon setup, I'd be happy to offer whatever help I can.

    Is your 30BR up and running?

    Good shootin'. -Al
    Its getting the final inletting and bedding done now.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrxR View Post
    Its getting the final inletting and bedding done now.
    I would start with an available, known-quantity bullet (the BIB or the Berger 115) and get a base line. Then, get your hands on some bullets made in the dies you're interested in. See how they shoot for you against the known-good base line. If they measure up, you can confidently order your die set up.

    Good shootin' -Al

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    I would start with an available, known-quantity bullet (the BIB or the Berger 115) and get a base line. Then, get your hands on some bullets made in the dies you're interested in. See how they shoot for you against the known-good base line. If they measure up, you can confidently order your die set up.

    Good shootin' -Al
    I can get some BiB's from a fellow shooter, Not sure which ones yet. I would have to find out which ones he has. I think they are the 118gr but not sure which ogive. Berger's shouldn't be too bad to get. Ive got 50 Sample bullets from Stinger Ballistics from here in Canada to try as well. They are a 115gr 7.5 ogive on a .925 jacket. They are the only bullet maker that I know of left in Canada so trying bullets from different dies isn't all that easy

    I probably should have bought a set of 10 ogive dies that George Ulrich had last year but I was a little short of cash at the time.

    Thanks

  9. #24
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    Good advice from Al: "With a 7 ogive , the options of using either the .925" or 1.00" are both open. And I don't like not having options. The BIB 118 1.00" 10 ogive bullets shoot like the Hammers Of Hell and have a base to ogive in the .325 range. My 7 ogive 1.00" 117's have a base to ogive in the .370 range. A few taps on the calculator tells us the base to ogive on a 10 ogive .925" jacket is going to get pretty short. How short is too short? Darned if I know as I've never been there. Randy could offer some guidance there."

    For thirty Cal. bullets based upon the .925" long jacket, especially in combination with the typical 1.5 degree leade angle, I would not want a longer nose than produced via 8 caliber tangent ogive/.0625" me'plat (K-O pin) diameter.

    Via a Sinclair comparator, bullets based on the .925" long jacket, pointed with my Niemi 7 ogive typically feature a 0.360" long cylinder/shank - that is 0.030" LONGER than the Niemi 10 ogive die makes using 1.00" long jackets. While all of our numbers are simply reference points, these length represent LONG-TERM base-lines/targets.

    Seated to just contact the lands in a ZERO free-bore, 1.75 Deg (1 Deg, 45 Min.) leade angle chamber, the base of a 7 ogive/.925" jacketed bullet will be about 1/2 way between the NK/shoulder junction and case mouth, or, roughly, 0.160" into the neck. With equal land contact, a 10 ogive bullet, based upon the 1.00" long jackets, will intrude about 0.030" less, or, "a fat 1/8" below the case-mouth. Some people are unable to, "get their head around this" . . . I like the extra space for more powder.

    Trust me, in combination with .925" jackets, you would not be happy with a tangent 10 ogive . . . and probably, not even a 9! Don't ask how I know . . . Oh, the shallower 1.5 deg. angle moves the bullet [even further] AWAY from the bolt-face . . . Good shootin'! RG
    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 05-20-2022 at 07:47 PM.

  10. #25
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    Randy, when I looked at your 10 ogive I thought the same thing for a .925. so I moved radius forward .060 which worked out perfect for .925's I think from memory it gave a .330 straight shank....

  11. #26
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    Though neither as professional, nor, organized as Al Nyhus, earlier this week, in preparation for a tournament, this weekend, I made time to tune a George Myer built 30x44 Hunter Class rifle, featuring a Lilja 1:17" twist barrel. This rifle was originally built by George for my PAL, Tom, then sold to Tim G., then, to me . . . I'm a sucker for nostalgic ties . . .

    I broke out a keg of OLD military surplus H-322 and began at a powder charge weight from a far gone era - upon opening, the oder and appearance, are, "just like new"! All , except bottom center, are three-shot [100 yd.] groups (prior to those five, barrel was 'cleaned'). Via the slightly <10Lb. Hunter Rifle/6X Burris scope, this was scanning for vertical . . and a little wind cutting . . . inner area 1.0" diameter - red ring width , .375". The initial group was first three shots following swapping the barrel, thus the initial 3-shots printing HIGH.

    The shooting sequence - I hope - is noted in Roman numerals (well, except for the IV): the intent is to display how typically difficult it is to tune ten ogive bullets . . . The 40.0 Gr. charge repeated fairly well - failing to park bullets in the 10-ring will amount to pilot error. Of note, that OLD School reamer features about 0.030" of free-bore - the seated bullet base barely abuts the powder column. RG

    P.S. The 112-10 ogive are, "left-overs" from a bunch I made in 2016, for Ralph Stewart and Mike Stinnett - a pair of wayward Texans . . . I "found" the bullets stashed in, "an obvious, but safe place" . . . oh, based upon the 1.00" jacket.
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    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 05-20-2022 at 07:48 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    ....the intent is to display how typically difficult it is to tune ten ogive bullets . . . The 40.0 Gr. charge repeated fairly well - failing to park bullets in the 10-ring will amount to pilot error. Of note, that OLD School reamer features about 0.030" of free-bore - the seated bullet base barely abuts the powder column. RG

    P.S. The 112-10 ogive are, "left-overs" from a bunch I made in 2016, fro Ralph Stewart and Mike Stennett - a pair of wayward texans . . . I "found the bullets stashed in, "an obvious, but safe place" . . . oh, based upon the 1.00" jacket.
    Now that's just crazy talk, buddy.

    Six year old bullets, 10 ogive, powder that hasn't been made since Jesus visited Omaha* and moly coated, to boot!

    It'll never work! -Al

    * Made me think of this ZZ Top song...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7zpc0bKB6M

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    .......

    * Made me think of this ZZ Top song...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7zpc0bKB6M
    the way Billy's beard splits when he lips it up to the mic...... I've grown mine out to almost as long and tried to split it, cain't make it talk like Billy's

    LaGrange still gives me goosebumples......

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