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Thread: Full Length die with a shoulder/neck bushing

  1. #1
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    TUBB and Warner Full Length die with a shoulder/neck bushing

    what's the advantage over a FL sizer with a neck bushing ? The busing floats to size shoulder/neck with less runout ? verses a shoulder sized that's part of body of the die ?
    Last edited by shootsteady; 04-07-2022 at 08:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    Die

    You need to full length size your brass it make sure that you donít have to use so much force when extracting a fired case that you up-set your rifle in the bags. The bushing letís you have the opportunity to tweak your neck tension to the amount you want, plus you can set it to only size maybe 2/3ís of the neck, the other 1/3 thst is in-sized will help center the bullet in the bore.

    At least thatís how my mind sees it! 😎

  3. #3
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    The truly monstrous advantage is that you can adjust the bushings...... it's like having a crescent wrench (adjustable spanner to you limeys) VS just owning one 9/16 (14mm to the rest of the world) open end/box end

    No-turn necks?---- you need a bushing die
    Changing brands of brass?-----you need a bushing die
    "Playing with" neck tension for tuning??----you need a bushing die
    Cases are work hardening?----you need a bushing die
    Changing bullets?----you need a bushing die


    Basically you absolutely must go through a few thousand rounds using bushing type dies just to learn what you need to know to ever buy a properly fitted singleton die.


    In


    My


    Opinion


    al

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    The truly monstrous advantage is that you can adjust the bushings...... it's like having a crescent wrench (adjustable spanner to you limeys) VS just owning one 9/16 (14mm to the rest of the world) open end/box end

    No-turn necks?---- you need a bushing die
    Changing brands of brass?-----you need a bushing die
    "Playing with" neck tension for tuning??----you need a bushing die
    Cases are work hardening?----you need a bushing die
    Changing bullets?----you need a bushing die


    Basically you absolutely must go through a few thousand rounds using bushing type dies just to learn what you need to know to ever buy a properly fitted singleton die.

    In My Opinion al
    And It makes better sense with bushing dies, wish I would have got them first instead of 21st/sinclair mandrels !

    I thought maybe separate shoulder sizing from the body of the die made a difference but it appears it doesn't. What's really a joke is when you ask these die people questions, I'm asking you, they tend to send you around the barn with no door inside. Do they out source the bushing and just make the die body ? Maybe, probably.

    The wrench example is get the job done faster or easier, yeah I get that. But not better.

    Sizing in one stroke of the press handle with bushings verses another die with mandrels with a FL die, too much work on the brass. No annealing.
    Last edited by shootsteady; 04-08-2022 at 07:22 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootsteady View Post
    What's really a joke is when you ask these die people questions, I'm asking you, they tend to send you around the barn with no door inside.
    Don't be too hard on the die mfgs. as there's not just one 'correct' answer to your question. To start with, a description of what you're working with, your accuracy goals and how you're testing will be helpful.

    -Is adjusting neck tension important for accuracy tuning? Absolutely.
    -Is a good full length bushing die a nice way to achieve this? Absolutely.
    -Can a full length bushing die and the bushings themselves give other issues? Absolutely.

    In general, my experience has been that with fully turned case necks or necks that have been cleaned up about 75% (no-turn or factory chambers), a quality full length bushing die does a great job. If the necks aren't perfectly round, a bushing die may make things worse in terms of run out...the bushing wants to 'self center' (the bushing has radial clearance in the die) on an out of round object (the neck). Does increased run out makes the accuracy worse? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the whole package.

    I guess that's a long way around saying that the quality of the case necks to be used is what I look at when deciding on a full length die. Even then, you just have to try stuff to see if it helps or hurts.

    Even with a dead on chambering job and perfectly turned necks in a real Benchrest rig, a full length non-bushing die with a fixed diameter neck has some advantages. Think a Redding Body Die with the neck opening honed/reamed to a specific dimension and a very loose press that lets the whole system 'self center', as one example.

    Good basic stuff, well thought out and worked out, is never a bad thing.

    Good shootin' -Al

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Don't be too hard on the die mfgs. as there's not just one 'correct' answer to your question. To start with, a description of what you're working with, your accuracy goals and how you're testing will be helpful.

    -Is adjusting neck tension important for accuracy tuning? Absolutely.
    -Is a good full length bushing die a nice way to achieve this? Absolutely.
    -Can a full length bushing die and the bushings themselves give other issues? Absolutely.

    In general, my experience has been that with fully turned case necks or necks that have been cleaned up about 75% (no-turn or factory chambers), a quality full length bushing die does a great job. If the necks aren't perfectly round, a bushing die may make things worse in terms of run out...the bushing wants to 'self center' (the bushing has radial clearance in the die) on an out of round object (the neck). Does increased run out makes the accuracy worse? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the whole package.

    I guess that's a long way around saying that the quality of the case necks to be used is what I look at when deciding on a full length die. Even then, you just have to try stuff to see if it helps or hurts.

    Even with a dead on chambering job and perfectly turned necks in a real Benchrest rig, a full length non-bushing die with a fixed diameter neck has some advantages. Think a Redding Body Die with the neck opening honed/reamed to a specific dimension and a very loose press that lets the whole system 'self center', as one example.

    Good basic stuff, well thought out and worked out, is never a bad thing.

    Good shootin' -Al

    Al,
    Makes one wonder about all the new uber expensive tight as a drum presses being offered these days doesn't it?

  7. #7
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    I have a coax press, and it does alleviate runout, but not better than my Rock Chucker, they're the same. Switching out dies faster is what I like about the coax, but my quest for concentricity was the main reason why I bought it. As far as die mfgs they tend to be too tight, and over size. I use manderls .001 neck tension, and was steered away from bushing introducing more runout then mandrels.


    "I guess that's a long way around saying that the quality of the case necks to be used is what I look at when deciding on a full length die. Even then, you just have to try stuff to see if it helps or hurts."

    I trying not to just buy stuff to see... quality of the case necks, I turn after mandreling to have a nice fit on the pilot. Quality brass? I can achive .0015 turned within .00025 when I'm done.

    Alinwa said this.....

    "Changing brands of brass?-----you need a bushing die"

    No mention here about a quality neck. Why would it depend a quality neck when deciding on what die to get?

    As far a my goals, with my M70 sporter, bedded, free floated barrel, is alot more capable of what some folks would settle for to hunt. Just seeing how far I can go....... I went with Rem brass neck turned, neck mandrel .001 neck tension, mag primers and W 760 powder, and got under a half inch and better. I want to use a temp insensitive powder due to I live too far away from the range to work loads up for colder weather. The load I got with W760 didn't shoot the same in June that it does in late October early November.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by glp View Post
    Al,
    Makes one wonder about all the new uber expensive tight as a drum presses being offered these days doesn't it?
    Ohh it's MUCH worse than that the whole "alignment" thing.......


    So ya' screws yer thousand dollar hand shat sizing die into another thousand dollar item of levers and pulleys sliding rams and scrupulous alignements,





    and you now insert your piece of work, a cartridge case made of modeling clay into a doller-two-ninety-nine "shellholder" and drive it home with a stick.......




    (I'm not saying the methodology is "bad"...... I'm saying Super Dies and Super Presses are scams. That ONLY fitment of die-to-chamber matters))

  9. #9
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    Sounds like you have a nice shooting little M70. What's the chambering?

    I guess I'm a bit unsure of what you mean by this:

    Quote Originally Posted by shootsteady View Post
    As far as die mfgs they tend to be too tight, and over size. I use manderls .001 neck tension, and was steered away from bushing introducing more runout then mandrels.
    Is your question actually whether the Warner/Tubb/Neil Jones style full length dies (that have the shoulder as part of the bushing) a better situation for you than a conventional full length Redding Type 'S'/Harrell's style bushing die (the shoulder is in the die itself)?

    Good shootin' -Al

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by glp View Post
    Al,Makes one wonder about all the new uber expensive tight as a drum presses being offered these days doesn't it?
    Cool pieces of machining, no doubt about that. I'm a Partner press kinda' guy. -Al

  11. #11
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    Alinwa

    That ONLY fitment of die-to-chamber matters))

    agreed

    Al Nyhus

    What's the chambering?

    .30-06

    I guess I'm a bit unsure of what you mean by this: they tend to be too tight, and over size

    the head area.

    Is your question actually whether the Warner/Tubb/Neil Jones style full length dies (that have the shoulder as part of the bushing) a better situation for you than a conventional full length Redding Type 'S'/Harrell's style bushing die (the shoulder is in the die itself)?

    yes, but it appears it isn't.

    changing brass effects the custom die tolerances... ok, so if they made the neck area on a non bushing die to the fired case, that would change when I get a different brand of brass. Would different brass be an issue at the head too? If not then a different bushing would make up for another brand of brass at the neck ?
    Last edited by shootsteady; 04-08-2022 at 01:25 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Ohh it's MUCH worse than that the whole "alignment" thing.......

    So ya' screws yer thousand dollar hand shat sizing die into another thousand dollar item of levers and pulleys sliding rams and scrupulous alignements,

    and you now insert your piece of work, a cartridge case made of modeling clay into a doller-two-ninety-nine "shellholder" and drive it home with a stick.......

    (I'm not saying the methodology is "bad"...... I'm saying Super Dies and Super Presses are scams. That ONLY fitment of die-to-chamber matters))
    Bingo ^

    -Lee
    www.singleactions.com

  13. #13
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    super dies and super presses are scams, I agree. I watched a video of a guy loading great ammo in his RCBS RC Jr. He said good quality dies are key, but what is quality ? The runout rabbit hole ain't worth going down ?

    But I agree with Alinwa, That ONLY fitment of die-to-chamber matters. Why is that? Less work on the brass longer case life? I guess I've come to the conclusion neck tension help control SD and ES along with temp insensitive powders.

    The first firing of the case makes it form to the gross dimensions of your rifle's chamber. If your rifle is straight, if your chamber is short and if your first load is stiff you'll get the straightest brass possible in your system.

    NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse. How much worse Al ? Not worth loosin sleep over, and accuracy is what it is? based on the rig and other parameters.
    Last edited by shootsteady; 04-08-2022 at 06:12 PM.

  14. #14
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    If I'm following all this correctly, my next step would be trying a Redding 77148 Type S full length bushing die and bushings that are .002, .003 and .004 smaller than what the necks measure with a bullet seated. -Al
    Last edited by Al Nyhus; 04-09-2022 at 11:06 AM.

  15. #15
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    For my PPC and 30BR I have RCBS bushing dies, Harrells, and Warner dies. I listened to Alinwa on brass and chamber fit and had my reamer person grind a reamer to my specs. I used that reamer to make my sizing die. Oh, I never anneal as I trash the brass after a weekend match.
    I made 2 dies, one without a need for a bushing and the other with bushing. Some may remember that I was in the carbide bushing business and am covered for 22,6mm, 6,5, and 308 with 6 sizes ea. in .0005 increments.
    Brass has not lost a match for me, just I have lost matches.
    By the way, what is a need for a 30-06 that shoots better than an inch? A 2 moa will kill anything to 300 yds.

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