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Thread: A list of importance:

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Ellamore, WV
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    104
    interested in the list idea. It could be quite revealing.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    776
    sooooo
    i LIKE to shoot,
    i discovered 1000yd br and actually watched for 2 years, then started my first build.
    i enjoy the competition, but i am just not "tony boyer" serious about it.
    if it becomes work, i miss the fun...i did not shoot in a match this weekend because the first day of practice was not fun.
    i started short range br 2 yrs ago, and too many times it is work not fun
    i have won..typically a surprise, i know when i shoot well but am still surprised when i actually win

    i gotta have fun FIRST

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    washington.........STATE that is.
    Posts
    11,911
    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    sooooo
    i LIKE to shoot,
    i discovered 1000yd br and actually watched for 2 years, then started my first build.
    i enjoy the competition, but i am just not "tony boyer" serious about it.
    if it becomes work, i miss the fun...i did not shoot in a match this weekend because the first day of practice was not fun.
    i started short range br 2 yrs ago, and too many times it is work not fun
    i have won..typically a surprise, i know when i shoot well but am still surprised when i actually win

    i gotta have fun FIRST
    No disagreement here, like you, FUN is my first goal too. But it's part of my fun to know that I CAN win

    "if I do my part"

    I have been able to shoot in my yard for most of 50yrs...... I have a nephew-in-law down the road building an underground 100yd range, the latest of 3 in this area..... we tend to TEST that whole "if I do my part" hypothesis and and I've earned the opinion that 90% of the shooters can shoot better than 99.9% of the equipment being used!

    Except real Bench Rest rigs.

    This actual-factual BR equipment is more inherently accurate than a $20,000.00 laser transit at 100yds.

    Provided it's the right stuff.

    In the right order and

    Properly assembled.

    I'm with Pete, "the devil's in the details"

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Surprise, AZ
    Posts
    411

    The most important part of competition is figuring out what you want from competition

    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    sooooo
    i LIKE to shoot,
    i discovered 1000yd br and actually watched for 2 years, then started my first build.
    i enjoy the competition, but i am just not "tony boyer" serious about it.
    if it becomes work, i miss the fun...i did not shoot in a match this weekend because the first day of practice was not fun.
    i started short range br 2 yrs ago, and too many times it is work not fun
    i have won..typically a surprise, i know when i shoot well but am still surprised when i actually win

    i gotta have fun FIRST
    That's a great deal of prescience. Actually, it's easier to recognize than to deal with. But I'm mostly in the same boat. I want to have fun. I *don't* want to sacrifice my happiness to winning. BUT.... I *do* want to win... :-)

    It's a conundrum that each shooter must face. We all want to win, but how much are we willing to work for the gold? I know where I can reasonably expect to be (contrast with "where I want to be" - which is, of course, best on the planet by a huge margin). I'm just not going to give that much effort to it. I'd rather compare notes with friends, help each other out, and leave every match thinking "not bad - and so-an'-so sure puts in the hours...".

    Different strokes. I've been through the cycle of being too competitive, making practice into work, making your hobby miserable.... I'm completely with rsmithsr at this point. There's no large purse, they're not giving away a Ferrari at the end of the match, the racing babes aren't coming out to congratulate you. Shoot against your previous self, enjoy the great guys and gals you shoot with, have some pizza and beer at the end of the day. Or be in it to win it. Neither is right nor wrong. It's only wrong when you've become confused about which camp you're in. And neither camp is easy. It's *hard* to recognize that you aren't there to win, but still want to try hard. It's also hard to be there to win, but to come in mid-page. Results are not necessarily the same between the two groups. And that can be the hardest of all.

    I'm certainly not Tony Boyer. I wrapped myself around the axle in a couple of other shooting sports and turned them in to jobs. I'm no longer there. I'm not as good as I once was, but I have a lot of fun at matches. I have tremendous respect for Tony B, but I doubt he thinks much of those like me, if he thinks of us at all. And I don't care. I'm in it to play, to have a good time, and to meet others. I still love competition. I haven't given up. But, I have realized that there's a level I'm not really aspiring to. If you are, I'll compete with you while our skills are commensurate, and help you however I can. And I will applaud and encourage you as you pass me by...

    GsT

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,494

    List of importance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    1. a reliable scope

    2. A good barrel

    3. Good bullet - powder combination

    4. a good platform for the barrel and scope

    and so on. Which items are the most important to be successful in competition.

    Pete



    Pete as you know, this is an equipment driven sport. Ive talked to many of the top Benchrest shooters in the region, who have shared their stories about their personal journeys in this fun sport. The general consensus is, as Gary Bristow puts it, “ Buy the best equipment.” I mention fun, because my idea of success in any sport, that i don’t get paid to play, is the fun ,the people, the challenge. Ive posted some of the fun Benchrest experiences I’ve had on this forum.

    Through the years, I have browsed through some of the Big matches, equipment lists. Just to get an idea of what some of the top competitors are bringing to the arena. Now,this list of gear has constantly evolved through the years. The quest for extreme accuracy, never ends. The designers and creators of the latest equipment/gear deserves some credit. Some of the gadgets that you convince yourself that you can’t live without, are not cheap. Every sport/hobby that Ive ever tried, turned out to be way more expensive than I anticipated. On the list of importance, Mike Ratigan,writes in his book “Extreme Rifle Accuracy”, that Rifle scopes is the “weakest Link” in the equipment list. Mike refers to a scope that won't hold POI. Ive owned a couple of those.





    Glenn
    Last edited by Chism G; 12-14-2021 at 10:25 PM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
    Posts
    6,580

    this ended up

    being something other than we had in mind. We were sort of expecting folks to analyze their equipment, mostly and think about what was the most essential thing first then list say the trigger, how important it i is, the front rest is , the rear bag is; everything we tote around with us to give us the opportunity to win. In what order is whatever it is important.

    His thinking was perhaps we might find we need to tweak something or some things we do and or don't do that we should, taking stock, if you will.

    Anyway, it was really that simple.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete Wass; 12-15-2021 at 12:24 AM.

  7. #22
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    Nov 2006
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    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
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    Valid

    Quote Originally Posted by glp View Post
    your loaded ammo....an inside observation!
    It will be on my list.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
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    6,580

    Way more basic

    Quote Originally Posted by zippy06 View Post
    So which is it? Buying your way in....There 2 definitions. Yep 2.
    1. Buying the best equipment and components. Or.
    2. The above and having the stuff, drive, motivation, experimenting, time(shooting everyday. All conditions.), ER whatever....That costs money also.

    Not sure I got my point across. Someone might have the money. But, not the time or motivation to shoot everyday....
    Tim B.

    In for a penny, in for a pound. Many people have good enough equipment to win and some do on occasion. Some things are more essential than others. I keep harking back to something Jackie Schmidt said years ago on BRC: 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune, at any given time. So, if we think about what are the most important things, that might get some of us in better tune.

    Pete

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    S.E. MI
    Posts
    2,428
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    In for a penny, in for a pound. Many people have good enough equipment to win and some do on occasion. Some things are more essential than others. I keep harking back to something Jackie Schmidt said years ago on BRC: 75% of all the rifles on the line are out of tune, at any given time. So, if we think about what are the most important things, that might get some of us in better tune.

    Pete
    Pete. I remember that....

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    "Canal Town",USA
    Posts
    609

    Most Important

    Front rest & Rear bag:
    There are lots of good front rests out there but the joystick type rests are often adjusted too loose and can cause the shooters hand to flinch when the shooter next to you fires his rifle. With most ranges requiring super feet these days you need to make sure your front rest feet aren't sliding around on smooth concrete surfaces.
    Rear bags are most often the unnoticed cause of accuracy woes. There are many different bags used by BR shooters that have different physiques and different shooting styles.
    Tall bags can be problematic, shorter bags tend to deflect less and give a more stable platform. Can you move out of and back into your set up without having to readjust your aim ? Can you move the rifle back and forward without readjusting your aim? When you fire the rifle and push it forward is it still at the same aim point ? Check the fill on your bag body and ears, most guys tend to over fill and the rear bag becomes bouncy. Don't let your stock bottom out between the ears, there should be a little space on the bottom. Is your rear bag rocking on the bench surface when you try to wiggle it around ? Maybe you need a donut to take the rock out of it. Is your rear bag sliding away from you if you lean on it ? Maybe you need some water on the bench surface to give it some bite.
    Front and rear ear materials vary but you need to have a consistently smooth drag factor when the rifle recoils. Leather ears can be troublesome in Damp or humid conditions.
    Spend a day at the range focusing on your rest and bags. You might find a problem you've been overlooking.
    Joel

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lower Dakota Territory
    Posts
    2,389
    Hard to get into specifics because everything counts in real Benchrest...with a capital 'B', as Jackie puts it.

    Many people 'out gadget' themselves right from the start. Good basic gear and tooling, that does what it's supposed to, is the best approach, from my experience.

    A good example is seating dies. A $250 beautifully custom made seating die made from material smuggled out of the Russian space program and machined by a Swedish virgin drinking Perrier by the moon light might look pretty cool. But a $69 Wilson seater can work just as well.

    Same thing with a press for threaded dies. A $400 billet aluminum press of the finest craftsmanship is cool. But a little $75 RCBS Partner press works just as well. And sometimes better.

    Nothing wrong with stepping up to good gear...just make sure you're doing it after reaching the limits of the basic stuff.

    Good shootin'. -Al

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    "Canal Town",USA
    Posts
    609

    Barrels and Bullets

    Take a great shooting rifle and set it up on a flawed front rest and rear bag set up and it will still be a great shooting rifle but you will struggle to shoot a 5 shot group with it in competition and your aggregates will suffer. That's why the bench set up is top priority.
    Take a good rifle that will shoot a .2100 agg in good conditions off of a good bench set up. Replace your Jewell trigger with a Bix-n-Andy or a Flavio. You still have a .2100 rifle. Unglue that Kelbly fiberglass stock and replace it with a Scoville or Scarbrough carbon fibre stock. You still have a .2100 rifle. Pull off the Leupold scope and replace it with a March or Nightforce. You still have a 2100 rifle.
    Change up to some real good bullets and your aggregates will shrink down into the .1800's. Try and shoot some not so good bullets and your aggs will skyrocket. This makes good bullets the #1component priority in Benchrest. That is why the overwhelming majority of top competitors make their own.
    Most barrels (80%) available today are really good in my opinion. I don't have any testing system other than to run a ladder test with good bullets and see how they look. Some(20%)won't consistantly group with any combo of seating depth and powder charge. Others will look good with only one seating depth/ powder charge. While a few will look good over multiple seating depth/ powder charges. You can't sit in practice and burn up a potentially good barrel so you take it to a match and see how it aggs. If you win, it's safe to say it's a real good barrel. If the agg dosn't go well you clean it up real good and try it again at another not so important match. I have 4 sporters and generally chamber up a new barrel for each one every year.
    Now if I take a proven .1800 agg barrel and screw it on any of my other sporters it's still an .1800 agg barrel. If I take a .2300 agg barrel and screw it on another rifle it's still a .2300 barrel. With barrels and bullets you have good ones and not so good ones.
    Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".
    Put a good barrel together with good bullets and you'll be in the winners circle.
    Joel

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
    Posts
    6,580

    Great reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Nader View Post
    Take a great shooting rifle and set it up on a flawed front rest and rear bag set up and it will still be a great shooting rifle but you will struggle to shoot a 5 shot group with it in competition and your aggregates will suffer. That's why the bench set up is top priority.
    Take a good rifle that will shoot a .2100 agg in good conditions off of a good bench set up. Replace your Jewell trigger with a Bix-n-Andy or a Flavio. You still have a .2100 rifle. Unglue that Kelbly fiberglass stock and replace it with a Scoville or Scarbrough carbon fibre stock. You still have a .2100 rifle. Pull off the Leupold scope and replace it with a March or Nightforce. You still have a 2100 rifle.
    Change up to some real good bullets and your aggregates will shrink down into the .1800's. Try and shoot some not so good bullets and your aggs will skyrocket. This makes good bullets the #1component priority in Benchrest. That is why the overwhelming majority of top competitors make their own.
    Most barrels (80%) available today are really good in my opinion. I don't have any testing system other than to run a ladder test with good bullets and see how they look. Some(20%)won't consistantly group with any combo of seating depth and powder charge. Others will look good with only one seating depth/ powder charge. While a few will look good over multiple seating depth/ powder charges. You can't sit in practice and burn up a potentially good barrel so you take it to a match and see how it aggs. If you win, it's safe to say it's a real good barrel. If the agg dosn't go well you clean it up real good and try it again at another not so important match. I have 4 sporters and generally chamber up a new barrel for each one every year.
    Now if I take a proven .1800 agg barrel and screw it on any of my other sporters it's still an .1800 agg barrel. If I take a .2300 agg barrel and screw it on another rifle it's still a .2300 barrel. With barrels and bullets you have good ones and not so good ones.
    Put a not so good barrel together with not so good bullets and you will " let the beatings commence immediately".
    Put a good barrel together with good bullets and you'll be in the winners circle.
    Joel
    Thank you for this. Real world information. Having said that, are you a "gadget guy" or an old school simple equipment guy?

    Thanks,

    Pete

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
    Posts
    6,580

    I agree on this stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by Nader View Post
    Front rest & Rear bag:
    There are lots of good front rests out there but the joystick type rests are often adjusted too loose and can cause the shooters hand to flinch when the shooter next to you fires his rifle. With most ranges requiring super feet these days you need to make sure your front rest feet aren't sliding around on smooth concrete surfaces.
    Rear bags are most often the unnoticed cause of accuracy woes. There are many different bags used by BR shooters that have different physiques and different shooting styles.
    Tall bags can be problematic, shorter bags tend to deflect less and give a more stable platform. Can you move out of and back into your set up without having to readjust your aim ? Can you move the rifle back and forward without readjusting your aim? When you fire the rifle and push it forward is it still at the same aim point ? Check the fill on your bag body and ears, most guys tend to over fill and the rear bag becomes bouncy. Don't let your stock bottom out between the ears, there should be a little space on the bottom. Is your rear bag rocking on the bench surface when you try to wiggle it around ? Maybe you need a donut to take the rock out of it. Is your rear bag sliding away from you if you lean on it ? Maybe you need some water on the bench surface to give it some bite.
    Front and rear ear materials vary but you need to have a consistently smooth drag factor when the rifle recoils. Leather ears can be troublesome in Damp or humid conditions.
    Spend a day at the range focusing on your rest and bags. You might find a problem you've been overlooking.
    Joel
    Great information. Thank you for contributing.

    Pete

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Augusta, Maine & Palm Coast, Fl
    Posts
    6,580

    Thanks Glenn

    Quote Originally Posted by Chism G View Post
    Pete as you know, this is an equipment driven sport. Ive talked to many of the top Benchrest shooters in the region, who have shared their stories about their personal journeys in this fun sport. The general consensus is, as Gary Bristow puts it, “ Buy the best equipment.” I mention fun, because my idea of success in any sport, that i don’t get paid to play, is the fun ,the people, the challenge. Ive posted some of the fun Benchrest experiences I’ve had on this forum.

    Through the years, I have browsed through some of the Big matches, equipment lists. Just to get an idea of what some of the top competitors are bringing to the arena. Now,this list of gear has constantly evolved through the years. The quest for extreme accuracy, never ends. The designers and creators of the latest equipment/gear deserves some credit. Some of the gadgets that you convince yourself that you can’t live without, are not cheap. Every sport/hobby that Ive ever tried, turned out to be way more expensive than I anticipated. On the list of importance, Mike Ratigan,writes in his book “Extreme Rifle Accuracy”, that Rifle scopes is the “weakest Link” in the equipment list. Mike refers to a scope that won't hold POI. Ive owned a couple of those.





    Glenn
    Great information.

    Pete

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