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Thread: Al's Perfect LR BR action???

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  1. #1
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    Al's Perfect LR BR action???

    6PPC's are easy but what does one do with a larger case? One which whips the assembly around like a terrier whipping a rat??

    I absolutely LOVE the RB/LL/RE Panda with mechanical ejector but I'm convinced I simply cannot get the barrels tightened enough for large high-energy rounds. I've built and rebuilt, barreled and rebarreled, bedded and rebedded a Panda in 6X47L and 6.5CM 10 different ways in a known platform and can't get 'er to tighten up to crispness. I now have my "favorite action setup" on my rail gun.....where I don't need it!

    I'm spec'ing for an 1.350 round action as IMO it offers the balance of strength-to-weight I'm interested in

    Here are the things I consider important.

    #1- I MUST be able to torque bbls to 150lb with an 1.350 shoulder and for this to happen the scope bases must be removable and the action must be configured to accept a grown-up action wrench. Torqueing an 1.2 shoulder will (does) visibly deform it. Torqueing an 1.25 while it's not visible, also resets sometimes...... and always will show advancement over several barrel changes which simply stated proves deformation empirically.

    #2- For scope bases to be removable they MUST be pinned, and well pinned. I'm currently drilling 5 screw holes into the top of custom actions and screwing/gluing down a Browning base which is an incredible pita....... only because I've yet to monkey up an effective way to drill/ream fitted pin holes with my 75yr-old mill. My brand new Neuvo looks 20yrs-old already.

    #3- The action MUST support a mechanical ejector. Kelbly's got this SO freakin' right!! The Panda R/L/R mechanical ejector setup is P E R F E C T except for it being a steel insert imbedded in bubble gum. (STILL perfect for liddle rounds... perhaps BEST)

    #4- the action MUST be set up for Picatinny..... sorry, Davidson's aint in it altho pinning them _may_ help depending on depth of material to work with. This is a slippery slope as more "depth" as in taller assembly means longer torque moment arms. . . . . "terrier shaking a rat" . . . . .

    #5- trigger hanger


    There's more, a bunch more.... but these are my "must-haves"


    Currently the closest thing I can conjure action-wise is the BAT 'DS' with milled recoil lug in the which I drill and add another 1/4X28 pulldown screw 'wayyy out on the fore end of the extended action ring........but it's missing a bunch of other features I need, and it's too short. My custom-ordered rollercam 'M' is an OK action but too awful frikkin' wikkid HEAVY for words. And I'm afraid of warping that soft BAT steel every time I vise 'er up. The rear-action wrench I custom ordered with it just melted like butter at well below 150ftlb.

    I'm off to carve out yet another action wrench for the Neuvo..... 5th one ......

  2. #2
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    I meant Right Bolt/Left Load/Right Eject normally abbreviated RB/LP/RE most'n likely....

  3. #3
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    Action

    AL -

    Howdy !


    Just wondering...... would you be able to configure a Wichita WBR1375 the way you want ? They are round, and 1.375" diam.
    In their time, they were touted for their " stiffness "

    I have a 20MOA Picatinney on mine, that Ken Farrel made for me. The scope base is not pinned to my action, but my recoil lug is.
    I run an M-16 style extractor that Fred Sinclair installed for me. I use a trigger hanger.

    Guess it wouldn't work for you, because of your loading/ejection port needs; et al.

    Never mind.



    With regards,
    357Mag

  4. #4
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    "deformed" thread on torqueing...
    can you prove it is the action and not the bbl ??/
    that is an actual question

  5. #5
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    golden bear in black
    brm-xd ??
    i like torque...typically 125-150....
    but with the thread fit on the brmxd i felt very comfy at 125 with a 300 wsm

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=rsmithsr;847092]golden bear in black
    brm-xd ??
    i like torque...typically 125-150....
    but with the thread fit on the brmxd i felt very comfy at 125 with a 300 wsm[/QUOTE

    ]IMOthis setup works best as a glue-in which I'm avoiding (I have several already, not avoiding blindly..... I can't tighten them)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    "deformed" thread on torqueing...
    can you prove it is the action and not the bbl ??/
    that is an actual question
    .
    Deformed shoulder, on the barrel

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Torqueing an 1.25 while it's not visible, also resets sometimes...... and always will show advancement over several barrel changes which simply stated proves deformation empirically.
    I'm not a precision machinist but to see advancement on repeated barrel changes with 1.250 shoulder barrels at 150 lbs/ft of torque, something else must be going on....thread fit, action face to barrel fit, lubrication type or a combination of these.

    Checking the breakaway lbs./ft. numbers after shooting a barrelled action for a while and comparing it to the assembled lbs./ft. number can also be revealing.

    Good shootin'. -Al

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    I'm not a precision machinist but to see advancement on repeated barrel changes with 1.250 shoulder barrels at 150 lbs/ft of torque, something else must be going on....thread fit, action face to barrel fit, lubrication type or a combination of these.

    Checking the breakaway lbs./ft. numbers after shooting a barrelled action for a while and comparing it to the assembled lbs./ft. number can also be revealing.

    Good shootin'. -Al
    I mark all my setups using a horizontal scribe so I can easily spot even infinitesimal advancement.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    I mark all my setups using a horizontal scribe so I can easily spot even infinitesimal advancement.
    Same here. The question is...does it make a difference?

    Good shootin'. -Al

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Same here. The question is...does it make a difference?

    Good shootin'. -Al
    It does for me.

    IME for typical 100/200yd BR setups it's moot. A 6PPC or 30BR with only a .2 shouldering surface (.100 per side) torqued to 75ftlb seems to be locked up. and if it does advance over time it'll be only very little and doesn't seem to affect accuracy. I have tried torque these 1.2 barrel shank setups to over 100lb and found them to deform, always.

    A larger round, say .308 sized even running large pressures (small primer Lapua Palma cases) is adequately fixed by similar poundage.....with an 1.250 shank

    But when doing the larger 300WSM on a Heavy 600/1000yd gun and especially with a longer 28"-30" bbl with a tuning knob out on the end I'm uncomfortable even with an 1.250 shank diameter and for the big hunting rifles and really long-range stuff like my 65lb unlimited Heavy, and for big hunting rifles with 404 Jeffery and larger chamber dimensions. I've also worked with larger cases on my 65lb gun..... and it's currently "broken" in that I can't get it to really shoot well. I've been special ordering 1.350 shanked blanks for about 5 yrs for hunting rifles in these big chamberings and have found it to be a key to accuracy. When I can make a .250moa hunting rifle and yet my big steel-mounted Heavy gun fights to make quarter inch groups it's embarrassing! The big gun will drop little bullets into one little hole but get up to the long-range VLD's and I've got hunting rifles that'll beat it......

    AND, I time or index my barrels on the big stuff as I believe it dramatically affects the gun's recoil characteristics, and it's tuning characteristics. Any change or advancement changes the tune. ( IN MY OPINION )

    This is exactly what got me going on the "3D Tuner" stuff

    This is why I've prefaced this thread, asked the question regarding BIG rounds. I've spent the last 6-8yrs making BIG field stuff to BR specs..... not MACHINING standards, IMO quality machining is a must..... but making stuff that acts and shoots like BR stuff while making 3 times the energy. Folks always talk about tuning hunting guns but actually getting a large elk rifle to roundhole is very rare.

    I've used this analogy before and I'll use it again.... when we started catching BIG fish, we had to learn all new knots and techniques. IMO these big rounds require higher torque values and larger abutting surfaces,

    IMO PPC/BR stuff is pretty well established science, and even up to and including the 6X47 or CM/308 sized stuff is easy. And a lighter 16-17lb 300WSM Light 600yd gun is pretty easy to make solid and tight. Where I'm running into problems is in the heavy steel-mounted 300WSM Heavy gun, and in making a 1000yd 338 to shoot the 300 OTM's. A Light 300WSM with 230's-240's will hammer the peewaddy out of you and a Heavy gun has trouble getting out of the way..... a 300 grain OTM trying to displace 65lb of gun humps the system up like a monkey buckin' a football....which tends to shake stuff aroung, like the barrel joint.

  12. #12
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    Jerry Stiller

    who is a Mechanical engineer gave formulas for torque on here and should be available with a search. And there is always Machinery's Handbook or now the Engineers Black book. At this point in the evolution of guns in general, every nuance of torque no doubt has been solved by sound engineering principals, not feelings.

    Pete

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    ..... a 300 grain OTM trying to displace 65lb of gun humps the system up like a monkey buckin' a football....which tends to shake stuff around, like the barrel joint.
    I certainly can see that scenario. As a gun moves in recoil, it's dissipating energy. When the gun weight is so high that it barely moves, the entire gun...every component...is absorbing the energy. It's no surprise that stuff gets broken and/or moves.

    Good shootin'. -Al

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