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Thread: Probes

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
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    North Eastern Australia
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    272
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis.J View Post
    Precision is relative to distance and which competitive shooting discipline so I would not agree that it is lost after 50 yards. Same for wind indicators the further the distance the more valuable they will become.
    Louis, could you please explain your logic for this statement?

    The reason that I am asking is that from practical experience I reckon that if a projectile is hit by a gust and deviates just after it leaves the muzzle then that deviation (angular) is there for the rest of the flight of the projectile.

    On the other hand, if the projectile is almost at the target and gets hit by a gust then the deviation should be much less, resulting in a higher score.

    I shoot rimfire comps at 50m and 100m and have consistently found this to hold up.

    For best consistency I watch the flags for as long as possible before a match to determine the prevailing 'condition' when all flags are aligned and during the shoot try to match that condition every time.

    I am by no means an expert, so this is a genuine question to help me improve my technique.

    Regards * doggie *

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    101
    Your assumption is correct.

    The most important flags are the ones closer to muzzle. And that, at any distance.
    Typically I shoot, 50m, with 7 flags, being 5 of them until 35m. The other two, after 35m, are just to see wind trend, and depending of wind direction, to access the "wave".

    I shoot 25 and 50m, and TKH, is correct too when he says that our rimfire looses accuracy after 50m.

    If you pick a 10m air rifle and shoot some BR25 targets at 25m, you'll soon discover that the flags can't help you anymore. That's because the accuracy is lost, after 10m for those air rifles, is just too much to be compensated by a good wind technique. The same for rimfire, after 50m.

    Of course you'll hit the target, of course you nail some dots, but then the game became more luck than knowledge.

    Just see the simplified ballistics... if your rifle is able to do a 10mm group at 50m, if nothing else interferes, at 100m, the group will be 20mm. So, with no wind, you can't be more accurate than a 20mm circle... way too much. On top of that put wind drift, and you'll be on Lord hands.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wilcox, PA
    Posts
    1,226

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by louis.j View Post
    unfortunately i cannot not agree i used socks to accomplish a national championship and a national record some time after that. I have been a competitive benchrest competitor now going over 23 years. Like i said i have tried just about every type of wind indicator available including gene beggs probes. You do have a right to your own opinion but if you have not used my own you really cannot comment on if they do or do not actually work?
    what ever you settle with and read well that what you should use but the daisy surpasses all.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Ca.
    Posts
    960
    It is all basically related to the Time Of Flight to the target. The longer the flight the more the bullets path is effected by the conditions. The more the bullet is effected by the wind the more critical your wind reading skills now have to become. Shooting the first flag is a rule of thumb often times it can be the furthest one that now becomes the more important. Myself I am now a 200 yard lead and tin plainbase cast bullet competitor and have been doing it for 23 + now. So my time of flight is now quite long so I am extremely dependent on my wind indicators. How to read exactly what they are telling me as well as the mirage and then being able to compensate for where it is I want the bullet to go. So precision is keeping those bullets inside of a 1 1/2 circle with only a velocity averaging 1474fps and not much more than a rimfire rifle. Bullet drop from muzzle to target is about 20 inches. So the bullet is also going through several layers of unseen / indicated wind on the way to the target. Typically that wind that is now being higher than the wind indicators themselves can now be moving faster. It all boils down to fully understanding your own type of wind indicators and the current environment taking place around each one of them and I use four and one at the target.
    I hope that helps to answer your question?

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
    Posts
    3,030
    Quote Originally Posted by PedroS View Post
    Your assumption is correct.

    The most important flags are the ones closer to muzzle. And that, at any distance.
    Typically I shoot, 50m, with 7 flags, being 5 of them until 35m. The other two, after 35m, are just to see wind trend, and depending of wind direction, to access the "wave".

    I shoot 25 and 50m, and TKH, is correct too when he says that our rimfire looses accuracy after 50m.

    If you pick a 10m air rifle and shoot some BR25 targets at 25m, you'll soon discover that the flags can't help you anymore. That's because the accuracy is lost, after 10m for those air rifles, is just too much to be compensated by a good wind technique. The same for rimfire, after 50m.

    Of course you'll hit the target, of course you nail some dots, but then the game became more luck than knowledge.

    Just see the simplified ballistics... if your rifle is able to do a 10mm group at 50m, if nothing else interferes, at 100m, the group will be 20mm. So, with no wind, you can't be more accurate than a 20mm circle... way too much. On top of that put wind drift, and you'll be on Lord hands.
    Often not true Pedro, it is range dependent any we commonly have to put up with variations that can and will change that consideration materially.
    While I would not disagree under many conditions, several dictate a change….my home range is a prime example being primarily a wide open 45 bench CFBR range with often different winds.
    With the normal 3o’clock you’d be right all day.
    A 9’o’clock with medium and high trees off range…..those flags in those gaps will kill you if ignored, often 25-30 yards out.
    We have occasional 6 o’clock winds that , dependent on intensity make the mid or farther flags most important.
    Lots of ranges here with variations on the theme.
    TKH and myself have shot multiple times at one range in particular for state/regional championships where the nature of the ground and ground cover or lack there of becomes of critical importance, flags being mid distance.
    Often these and others dictate variations on your theme IMHO.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Often not true Pedro, it is range dependent any we commonly have to put up with variations that can and will change that consideration materially.
    While I would not disagree under many conditions, several dictate a change….my home range is a prime example being primarily a wide open 45 bench CFBR range with often different winds.
    With the normal 3o’clock you’d be right all day.
    A 9’o’clock with medium and high trees off range…..those flags in those gaps will kill you if ignored, often 25-30 yards out.
    We have occasional 6 o’clock winds that , dependent on intensity make the mid or farther flags most important.
    Lots of ranges here with variations on the theme.
    TKH and myself have shot multiple times at one range in particular for state/regional championships where the nature of the ground and ground cover or lack there of becomes of critical importance, flags being mid distance.
    Often these and others dictate variations on your theme IMHO.
    Tim, that's another story...
    After you learned the basics, you have to learn the obstacles and the lead flag. Then you have to learn what lead you to the front of the field... knowing when not to shoot...

    And then the opposite...
    Lately here, right winds drive bullets low... and left ones high...
    Ah... and never forget... wind flags lie a lot.
    Last edited by PedroS; 08-08-2021 at 04:05 AM.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wilcox, PA
    Posts
    1,226

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by billbrawand View Post
    with cups on,
    remember when you are talking probes they are the ones with the half moons anf the cups ot flaigs.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Wilcox, PA
    Posts
    1,226

    Cool

    [QUOTE=BillBrawand;846316]remember when you are talking probes they are the ones with the half moons anf the cups NOT FLAIGS

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
    Posts
    3,030
    Interesting Post Script.Taken today, setting up for IBS Nationals all next week, many of the worlds best BR group shooters.
    Why are all those flags the same? BECAUSE THEY WORK!
    Looked high and low, couldn’t find a solitary garbage bag hanging from a stick.

    That’s only about 1/2 the field, other 1/2 is the exact same.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by tim; 08-15-2021 at 03:20 PM.

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    628
    That’s a pretty picture, Tim.

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    upstate, N.Y.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBecigneul View Post
    That’s a pretty picture, Tim.
    Not really RF, but hopefully illustrates an important universal point…..thanks.

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    628
    Ohhhh, it wasn’t lost on me, Tim.

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    North Central Pa
    Posts
    228

    Nor I

    Being 85 years old and having shot with both Francis and Tim. Jim M

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Ohio, Florida
    Posts
    29
    I’m looking for a small Beggs wind probe. I know I can buy a new one but thought I’d see if there is one collecting dust somewhere. Thanks

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Poetry, Tex.
    Posts
    7,022
    Quote Originally Posted by gkgeiger View Post
    I’m looking for a small Beggs wind probe. I know I can buy a new one but thought I’d see if there is one collecting dust somewhere. Thanks

    Mine are not for sale.

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