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Thread: rem 700

  1. #16
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    Speaking of Human Nature

    i was watching a fellow this morning on Youtube demonstrating how Human Nature fails us in desperate situations. He was doing stalls in his Luscombe and went to demonstrate how to not use ailerons to control stalls at slow flying speed. In his first attempt he used the ailerons instinctively. He then said, the only people born to instinctively fly were born with feathers. Yes, human nature often defeats our best intentions. By the way, Juan Brown has been flying most of his life, retired from a career in the Air Force and still is currently a 777 pilot. So, we decide what we believe and just like that, we believe what we believe. Once we do that, it's hard to change our instincts. Anyone bored yet?

    Pete

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    Al, It is more than just chambering the barrel. It is how he does the action, including the bolt. Just doing the fit in the counterbore will not give you what he does. If you carefully do the whole thing, and hit all of your marks, I believe that you will be quite pleased with the results. He has been doing them this way for a loooong time. Back in the late 90s I did the initial research and because I knew that Bill Shehane was quite active in the long range game, and had had a lot of success, I asked him. It was his recommendation that I went on, learning more from phone conversations with Bob, and seeing the results in my friend's rifle. Back then as today, Bobs method was, to my knowledge, unique. It seems that in our sport that there are significant numbers who are not at all comfortable with things that do not line up with their preconceived notions, enough so that based on those alone, and in the face of actual results they continue to object. Human nature...
    I imagine that's true

    The first item that came to my mind is that if one is to fit that counterbore to "touching" then the required 150thou of parallel surface gets REALLLY long. But I do have a very well aligned 700 crafted by Jim Borden which exhibits stellar alignment, and which I don't know what to do with it as the brutal cocking stroke kind of precludes it from being competitive in the bags...... for ME.

    So.... while I'll never again "true up" a Rem700, I may well play with some different fitments using this platform. Another 30X47L Hunter bbl might be in the works since I've got some seriously accurate stuff for it already. A couple barrels against which I can baseline the fitment, barrels which are too heavy to make weight as Hunter barrels.

    This is the platform on which I developed my original 30X47L, now on it's 3rd reamer iteration.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    I imagine that's true

    The first item that came to my mind is that if one is to fit that counterbore to "touching" then the required 150thou of parallel surface gets REALLLY long. But I do have a very well aligned 700 crafted by Jim Borden which exhibits stellar alignment, and which I don't know what to do with it as the brutal cocking stroke kind of precludes it from being competitive in the bags...... for ME.

    So.... while I'll never again "true up" a Rem700, I may well play with some different fitments using this platform. Another 30X47L Hunter bbl might be in the works since I've got some seriously accurate stuff for it already. A couple barrels against which I can baseline the fitment, barrels which are too heavy to make weight as Hunter barrels.

    This is the platform on which I developed my original 30X47L, now on it's 3rd reamer iteration.
    If you do this with an action that has been sleeved the full length of the bolt body, you risk binding. Bob leaves them factory in the front receiver ring and sleeves them very close in the back. This way the bolt is located in two places, nose and back, so no bind. Start with an untouched action.

  4. #19
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    alinwa I was referring to smiths who could address everything that you pointed out. Either for money or on their own such as Jackie Schmidt and yourself. I probably should have made that more clear in my earlier post as not every gunsmith is committed to doing such specialized work. After all of the work is done and the equipment is shooting up to par then the fellow sitting behind his equipment has to be able to do his own part. My benchrest competitive sport chat I have been shooting now going on twenty four years. Is a bit different than yours and he who reads the conditions the best tends to always be somewhere up at the top. But only when one gets his equipment to consistently shoot at an extremely competitive level and I also do my own work.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    If you do this with an action that has been sleeved the full length of the bolt body, you risk binding. Bob leaves them factory in the front receiver ring and sleeves them very close in the back. This way the bolt is located in two places, nose and back, so no bind. Start with an untouched action.
    When the rifle is fired the lugs on the bolt move to take up the head space and slam against the lugs in the receiver. With a conventional 700 the whole body of the bolt must follow; vibration. So..if we want accuracy from a 700 with a lot less futzing, FLOAT THE BOLT HEAD!

  6. #21
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    I have a custom action with a floating bolt head. While the lug contact is excellent, having them in full contact as you cycle the bolt, with striker spring tension on the bolt creates more friction, and makes the bolt operating effort higher. I notice that on the latest production the bolt heads come with DLC which I assume is to address this issue. With a normal bolt, as soon as the cocking piece engages the trigger the back of the bolt comes up with the result that only the bottom of the bottom lug actually makes contact. Certainly, with close clearances, as the rifle is fired this changes. After firing the spring pressure is no longer there, which is reflected in the level of drag.
    Last edited by Boyd Allen; 05-23-2021 at 03:23 PM.

  7. #22
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by rsmithsr View Post
    like you cannot fire a case 50 times, they just "do not last that long"
    ppc cases do. Your wrong.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    I have a custom action with a floating bolt head. While the lug contact is excellent, having them in full contact as you cycle the bolt, with striker spring tension on the bolt creates more friction, and makes the bolt operating effort higher. I notice that on the latest production the bolt heads come with DLC which I assume is to address this issue. With a normal bolt, as soon as the cocking piece engages the trigger the back of the bolt comes up with the result that only the bottom of the bottom lug actually makes contact. Certainly, with close clearances, as the rifle is fired this changes. After firing the spring pressure is no longer there, which is reflected in the level of drag.
    Sir, thanks for your insightful comments. A question; what is DLC?

  9. #24
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    A few years back against a field entirely populated by custom actioned rifles, except for his, Bob Brackney won the California State Championship which is a four gun match, shooting nothing but actions that he had blueprinted and sleeved, including unlimited. Randy, perhaps you should consider the facts before contradicting someone. Certainly axial contact is bad but that is not how his touch. The competitors in that match included Hall of Fame members and world record holders.
    Boyd, re-read my post and show me where I contradicted anyone!

    I merely expressed my DOUBT.

    Don't presume that my faceceous tag-line expresses any contradictory nature - I am a very successful proponent to doing stuff, "that'll never work", and of encouraging other to do the same . . . RG

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    Boyd, re-read my post and show me where I contradicted anyone!

    I merely expressed my DOUBT.

    Don't presume that my faceceous tag-line expresses any contradictory nature - I am a very successful proponent to doing stuff, "that'll never work", and of encouraging other to do the same . . . RG
    did you see the pile of barrels of buckys tough to compete aganist money or gifts fetting like nascar hard to bring new people.

  12. #27
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    When he was working with bolt sleeving on the 700's, Stan Ware did up a very unique 700 action that broke a few of the rules.

    The front receiver ring is machined and tapped at 12:00 directly over the upper locking lug. It's fitted with a 32 tpi Allen-headed screw with a Nylon pad at the tip that contacts the lug. The back end of the bolt is fitted with a sleeve for a very close fit. With the bolt closed, the front of the bolt is positioned via the screw from the top side of the receiver ring to perfectly center the bolt nose in the barrel counter bore. In use, the Nylon tip bears directly on the radial aspect of the lug. The leading edge of the lug is radiused for a smooth transition to the Nylon tip as the bolt is closed.

    The only real accomodation that needed to be made was with the front scope base. The adjusting screw is just forward of the rear base screw so the Kelbly/Davidson base has a hole in it for the screw.

    With a 13 twist Lilja 3 groove barrel and chambered with his .265 neck 6BR reamer throated for the .825 jacket length 65-68 gr. bullets, it shot every bit as well as you would have expected a custom actioned rig to. The tip being in contact with the lug didn't seem to be an issue. I have my own thoughts as to why but that's neither here nor there. I contributed a extra McMillan EDGE stock for the project, did the pillar bedding job as well as doing a fair amount of the testing with the gun.

    That's my 2 cents worth. You'll need three cents more for a cup of coffee at Al's Oasis and a couple bucks more to hand over to the barista at Starbucks.

    Good shootin'. -Al

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    I have a custom action with a floating bolt head. While the lug contact is excellent, having them in full contact as you cycle the bolt, with striker spring tension on the bolt creates more friction, and makes the bolt operating effort higher. I notice that on the latest production the bolt heads come with DLC which I assume is to address this issue. With a normal bolt, as soon as the cocking piece engages the trigger the back of the bolt comes up with the result that only the bottom of the bottom lug actually makes contact. Certainly, with close clearances, as the rifle is fired this changes. After firing the spring pressure is no longer there, which is reflected in the level of drag.
    Sir, again, thanks for your comments. Some confusion; I can see more friction with the floating head full contact lugs (over fixed bolt head) only while the lugs are being engaged as the bolt handle is being lowered. This would not change the feel of opening the bolt or moving the bolt back and forward, correct?

  14. #29
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    I've read this through a couple more times

    The plus I can see is fitting the bolt tighter. The front of the bolt, .007" isn't exactly close tolerances. .007" is pretty loose. With regard to the bolt slamming: anyone who has ever looked one of these over would realizes when the firing mechanism is holding the bolt lugs to the lugs in the action and more then likely folks are jamming their bullets to some amount, lugs ain't a gonna go anywhere. I've seen a pretty good number of 700's over the years that shot and shoot right with customs. I'd guess all of them have been trued up, to some degree. I currently am shooting two off and on that will shoot with any of the customs. More often than not, I am the weak link. Both of the 700's I have, have had the front trued up but that's it. Both bolts are as they came from the factory size wise. I'll go back to what my first reply said, It's what's out in front of the bolt face that more often than not determines if a rifle is capable of winning. Years ago, an old gunsmith said to me, in a conversation about this issue, " when a gate is closed, it's closed", meaning that it was what was out front of the gate that mattered. With all of the rifles I have owned over the years, only one I owned briefly would throw flyers. It was a new build and the owner was so disgusted with it he sold it to me for less than half what he had in it. Determined that I could make it shoot, I bought it. After a lot of work and effort I couldn't stop the flyers either. I didn't change barrels but sold it to an F class shooter who loved it and thanked me for selling it to him. The flyers weren't that bad and may not have been noticed by the F class guy but he never complained about it. The flyers weren't huge but would be out of the ten ring. It doesn't hurt one thing to tighten up a bolt and don't they feel nice once it's done but from my experience, I don't think it adds much to accuracy.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete Wass; 05-24-2021 at 12:03 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillBrawand View Post
    did you see the pile of barrels of buckys tough to compete aganist money or gifts fetting like nascar hard to bring new people.
    was at south creek 50 yrs ago a great shooter and gun smith tpld me he chambered a 308 after turning a taper on l v sorted his bullets when got to the match he found he brought wrong box of bullets when he got back home he also saw he hambered with steady rest off center and beat the hell out everyone.

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