Tuners!!!!

[linekin]

Let's cover one thing at a time and why being very methodical matters greatly. We'll start with a pic of a test target. You can clearly see group shape, size and poi changes.
For now, let's address poi. You can see a very clear sine wave on the target and a sweet spot very near both top and bottom of the sine wave, which is physically barrel swing. More later...

I've never noticed that drastic with rf. I'm going to have to pay more attention I guess. Its my understanding that its best to be tuned at the top of the wave opposed to the bottom.
Mike, any idea why we sometimes induce horizontal into the group when moving a tuner? I figured it was due to the bore of the tuner not being concentric with the bore. I saw it somewhat drastically once on a barrel that the tuner didn't fit real well on i.e., too loose. As I recall it had about .010 runout. My "cure" for it was to bore the tuner out when it was on the barrel in the lathe. Seemed to work .
Anyhow, Interested in your thoughts on it.

Keith

[doghunter]

I
Mike, any idea why we sometimes induce horizontal into the group when moving a tuner? I figured it was due to the bore of the tuner not being concentric with the bore. I saw it somewhat drastically once on a barrel that the tuner didn't fit real well on i.e., too loose. As I recall it had about .010 runout. My "cure" for it was to bore the tuner out when it was on the barrel in the lathe. Seemed to work .
Anyhow, Interested in your thoughts on it.

Keith

I am not Mike, but just to confirm my observations, my Aussie tuner http://www.loweyproducts.com/products.html was specifically bored to suit my barrel dimensions and with a 'locator' stop fitting so results are repeatable.

I visited my local range today. Vertical error was zero, just like when I tuned it 3 days ago for 'one holers'. Wind was about 10 km/h left - right.

Horizontal drift was present, my wind flags confirmed that a tuner cannot compensate for wind so made a mental note 'Watch the bloody flags' as I had a horizontal spread of about 0.3 in, my fault.

* doggie *

[tim]

I am not Mike, but just to confirm my observations, my Aussie tuner http://www.loweyproducts.com/products.html was specifically bored to suit my barrel dimensions and with a 'locator' stop fitting so results are repeatable.

I visited my local range today. Vertical error was zero, just like when I tuned it 3 days ago for 'one holers'. Wind was about 10 km/h left - right.

Horizontal drift was present, my wind flags confirmed that a tuner cannot compensate for wind so made a mental note 'Watch the bloody flags' as I had a horizontal spread of about 0.3 in, my fault.

* doggie *

You also cannot ideally tune in a 10km/h wind.
One of the single biggest mistakes shooters make is trying to tune in condition as opposed to waiting for condition to get as good as possible at your range.

[mwezell]

I've never noticed that drastic with rf. I'm going to have to pay more attention I guess. Its my understanding that its best to be tuned at the top of the wave opposed to the bottom.
Mike, any idea why we sometimes induce horizontal into the group when moving a tuner? I figured it was due to the bore of the tuner not being concentric with the bore. I saw it somewhat drastically once on a barrel that the tuner didn't fit real well on i.e., too loose. As I recall it had about .010 runout. My "cure" for it was to bore the tuner out when it was on the barrel in the lathe. Seemed to work .
Anyhow, Interested in your thoughts on it.

Keith

Hi Keith! RF doesn't put as much amplitude or muzzle deflection into the barrel to be as distinct at 50 yards. It'll show up more further but obviously, the groups open drastically and it's harder to trust each shot. As for amplitude, think, smaller hammer as opposed to cf. This is particularly so on shorter, stiffer barrels and a lighter tuner.

As to horizontal in the groups, in can be wind but tuners also affect horizontal when the gun is out of tune. The further out of tune, the more horizontal will show up. Gravity does make it more vertically biased but the barrel moves sideways, too. Imagine an egg on its end.

[doghunter]

You also cannot ideally tune in a 10km/h wind.
One of the single biggest mistakes shooters make is trying to tune in condition as opposed to waiting for condition to get as good as possible at your range.

You can say that again!

Unfortunately my local range has a prevailing l-r wind and it is a rare day when it drops to zero so I am forced to wait for 'condition' as indicated by my wind flags.

All is not lost though as even in a given wind condition, group size and location vary repeatably with each slight twist if the tuner body.

Whomever said that tuners were invented by the ammo manufactures was was correct, I went through two boxes of Eley Tenex yesterday and found 2 interesting nodes worth further exploration. (Range only open on Wednesdays 10 -12)

Range officer remarked that I had attended the range twice a week since the end of January so I told him that after two years of lockdown (Here in Victoria, Australia) I needed a bit of practice and in the words of the Arnold Palmer "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get"

At the end of the day, competitions may happen on a calm day or a windy day, so practicing in all conditions means that the wind can be your friend - If you are prepared and know how to handle it.

As for my tuner, it has made but a small but measurable improvement to my Anschutz 1411 group sizes as on a good day it already shot 1/4 moa groups without the tuner. By using the Lowey tuner I have been able to reduce vertical flyers, that's what I was hoping for.

What was more interesting was the psychological effect that it had on my fellow competitors, ranging from "gotta get one of them" to "bloody things should be banned".

Fascinating topic so please keep up the useful input people.

Regards * doggie *

[tonykharper]

You can say that again!

Unfortunately my local range has a prevailing l-r wind and it is a rare day when it drops to zero so I am forced to wait for 'condition' as indicated by my wind flags.

All is not lost though as even in a given wind condition, group size and location vary repeatably with each slight twist if the tuner body.

Whomever said that tuners were invented by the ammo manufactures was was correct, I went through two boxes of Eley Tenex yesterday and found 2 interesting nodes worth further exploration. (Range only open on Wednesdays 10 -12)

Range officer remarked that I had attended the range twice a week since the end of January so I told him that after two years of lockdown (Here in Victoria, Australia) I needed a bit of practice and in the words of the Arnold Palmer "The more I practice the luckier I seem to get"

At the end of the day, competitions may happen on a calm day or a windy day, so practicing in all conditions means that the wind can be your friend - If you are prepared and know how to handle it.

As for my tuner, it has made but a small but measurable improvement to my Anschutz 1411 group sizes as on a good day it already shot 1/4 moa groups without the tuner. By using the Lowey tuner I have been able to reduce vertical flyers, that's what I was hoping for.

What was more interesting was the psychological effect that it had on my fellow competitors, ranging from "gotta get one of them" to "bloody things should be banned".

Fascinating topic so please keep up the useful input people.

Regards * doggie *

doggie,

I've got to warn you. If shooting a couple of boxes of ammo bugs you?

You ain't seen nothing yet. One can literally go through a couple of cases of ammo, and a few barrels looking for the "illusive tune."

Shooting all that ammo will improve your performance and you can blame it on finding the "tune" or just learning to deal with the conditions.

Either way you win!!!

TKH (4628)

[doghunter]

Occasionally I have noticed that some people shoot with what appears to be a tuner about halfway along their barrel.

So, is this actually a tuner?

If so, how does it work?

What are the advantages/disadvantages compared to a tuner at the end of the barrel?

Still learning.

* doggie *

[tim]

My opinion, take it for what you paid for it.
Among the worst things new(ish) shooters can possibly do is start hanging, clamping, wild crap all over the barrel.
Now there are lots of theories about what may or may not work,you can spend a lifetime chasing your butt instead of learning your gun, and practicing with a proven platform, as in good barrel with known tuner until you have established a good skillset.
Some of the worlds absolute best performing guns have a Harrels on them, that’s it.
Spend extra $ on better ammo……..you’ll be light years ahead.

[PedroS]

My opinion, take it for what you paid for it.
Among the worst things new(ish) shooters can possibly do is start hanging, clamping, wild crap all over the barrel.
Now there are lots of theories about what may or may not work,you can spend a lifetime chasing your butt instead of learning your gun, and practicing with a proven platform, as in good barrel with known tuner until you have established a good skillset.
Some of the worlds absolute best performing guns have a Harrels on them, that’s it.
Spend extra $ on better ammo……..you’ll be light years ahead.

very wise words

[doclu60]

I whole heartily agree with posts 203 and 204. One thing I will add, is that I am slowly replacing my Harrells tuners with Stiller tuners. Better tolerances on machining and three lock screws to keep the tuner from accidently moving after it is set.

Scott

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Ok since by your own words - You know nothing..period. Simply put, you are illiterate of this subject and again, you're trying to deflect the question rather than giving anything you can scientically support, because you're fos. That simple.

You tell me why I can shoot over the last 5-6 years multiple lots in my rifles without having to move the tuner. these are all different lots/loads as you say. and I am not just saying they will shoot but I can compete with these different lots.

Here is my unscientific explanation, I have correctly timed the barrel so the bullet will exit at the correct spot of the barrel's movement. by using the correct amount of weight I have achieved a window (margin of error)of where the bullet exits so I can shoot multiple lots/loads and not have to change any tuner setting. not only can they shoot multiple lots/loads they can do it under different conditions.

So if going by what you say that this is not possible by the law of physics please since I am FOS as quoted above please tell me how is this possible. remember I have record targets that were shot in matches to prove I did this.

Lee

[mwezell]

Ok since by your own words - You know nothing..period. Simply put, you are illiterate of this subject and again, you're trying to deflect the question rather than giving anything you can scientically support, because you're fos. That simple.

You tell me why I can shoot over the last 5-6 years multiple lots in my rifles without having to move the tuner. these are all different lots/loads as you say. and I am not just saying they will shoot but I can compete with these different lots.

Here is my unscientific explanation, I have correctly timed the barrel so the bullet will exit at the correct spot of the barrel's movement. by using the correct amount of weight I have achieved a window (margin of error)of where the bullet exits so I can shoot multiple lots/loads and not have to change any tuner setting. not only can they shoot multiple lots/loads they can do it under different conditions.

So if going by what you say that this is not possible by the law of physics please since I am FOS as quoted above please tell me how is this possible. remember I have record targets that were shot in matches to prove I did this.

Lee

I didn't ask what you are doing. Unless your system works for any and all lots, it's not a system at all. Rather, it's you testing lots and finding some that shoot at your tuner setting. So there it is. Unless you can shoot ALL lots competitively at a single setting, I just answered your question. If all lots can shoot competitively at a single setting, then you got me. I can't explain that because there is no physical explanation for it.

What I found while shooting ara/psl was that every bit of eley red/black and Lapua that I shot could be competitive but not always at the same setting. And yes, some lots were better than others. But rather than scrapping a lot that didn't shoot well outta the gate, I did establish a system, one where I know how far out of tune I am on the tuner by the size and shapes of the groups, much like cf guys do when loading at the range. So, I simply move the tuner accordingly and some of those "bad" lots, became some of my better shooting lots. It's explained in detail on the other site. Some good info there if you had actually read it instead of this same old crap.

Got any "junk" eley or lapua? Wanna run a test? Post pics of some bad groups and I think I can help you tune your rifle to it.

[PedroS]

We are going round and round and seems no one has a definitive, if there's any, answer/procedure to this matter.
I'm not belonging to any party, either the non moving or the moving tuner ones...

I read all comments/opinions with interested and keep to me what I think it's correct.
Art is not correct, because it depends of many subjective variables.
Neither science is, because it keeps changing according to knowledge. I have, still is, based my life on science, more correctly evidence based one, but sometimes my experience didn't match what evidence is showing. We should be aware, of specific variables as well as specific populations (in my case) that could, and will, change the results. That's the wonder of science. So science is not black and white, you have a lot of grey areas... if you know what I mean.

One thing that escapes me to understand, is if you compare different lots to different loads, we should agree/expect, each bullet to shoot exactly the same within a specific lot. It happens in CF, but not in RF. How do I know? Simple, put a chronograph in front of your barrel and see. In fact, CF aims to very precise same speed across the same load. RF has, on the contrary, a bigger, and much higher percentage of variance. So, how can we consider such a lot a different load if there is such a big difference in speed? The puzzling part is, irrespectively of this speed variance, that lot shoots well in a perfectly tuned RF. Why? I simply don't know...

Also, should be said in bold letters... unfortunately, not all lots can be tuned to shoot well.

Disclaimer: I shoot for results, but, of course, I like to understand what's behind.

[mwezell]

We are going round and round and seems no one has a definitive, if there's any, answer/procedure to this matter.
I'm not belonging to any party, either the non moving or the moving tuner ones...

I read all comments/opinions with interested and keep to me what I think it's correct.
Art is not correct, because it depends of many subjective variables.
Neither science is, because it keeps changing according to knowledge. I have, still is, based my life on science, more correctly evidence based one, but sometimes my experience didn't match what evidence is showing. We should be aware, of specific variables as well as specific populations (in my case) that could, and will, change the results. That's the wonder of science. So science is not black and white, you have a lot of grey areas... if you know what I mean.

One thing that escapes me to understand, is if you compare different lots to different loads, we should agree/expect, each bullet to shoot exactly the same within a specific lot. It happens in CF, but not in RF. How do I know? Simple, put a chronograph in front of your barrel and see. In fact, CF aims to very precise same speed across the same load. RF has, on the contrary, a bigger, and much higher percentage of variance. So, how can we consider such a lot a different load if there is such a big difference in speed? The puzzling part is, irrespectively of this speed variance, that lot shoots well in a perfectly tuned RF. Why? I simply don't know...

Also, should be said in bold letters... unfortunately, not all lots can be tuned to shoot well.

Disclaimer: I shoot for results, but, of course, I like to understand what's behind.

I agree that results are what we are after, regardless of how or why we get there. That said, doing vibration analysis testing allowed us to watch bullet exits along a sine wave on an oscilloscope and the effects of moving the tuner. Bottom line, moving the tuner changes phase time. What that means is simply put, we can shift the sine wave left or right to have bullet exit occur at the top, bottom or anywhere along the sine wave pattern. This is actual, not theory. Best accuracy occurs at top or bottom of the sine wave, repeatedly. Regardless of what I or we think about positive compensation, testing has shown muzzle velocities to have less affect on group size at the top rather than at the bottom. This seems to support that some level of positive compensation does happen. I don't think that what we shoot(rifles) are well designed to get all positive compensation. Nevertheless, some is better than none and it would explain why velocity variations have less affect than is calculable by simple ballistic charts/programs. Admittedly, our vibration analysis was not geared toward testing for positive compensation but it did shed some light on the subject. I try not to get deep into pc because of that and I don't claim to know enough about that specific aspect of tuning. I do believe there may be a fair amount to be gained from testing it more but that a gun would look drastically different with the only point being to gain MORE pc from it, and MORE forgiveness to velocity variations.
Some want to make my method seem like some outlandish theory but in reality, it's just a much more methodical means of tuning, that quantifies each adjustment's affect on target..that's all it is. And this is based on watching bullet exit times relative to muzzle position on an oscilloscope. I'm not reinventing the wheel with my approach, just breaking it down to predictable and repeatable group shapes and sizes that can be read and used to know how far to move the tuner. That's exactly how cf shooters approach adjusting loads as conditions change. They simply read the target and go up or down with powder charge to affect bullet exit timing. It doesn't matter so much that they/we know why it works as long as they can adjust and get predictable results that can be worked with. After doing the testing though, I'm more certain than ever that there is no single magical spot that miraculously allows the gun to shoot all ammo to its full potential. The biggest thing that is still left to figure out is why some barrels/rifles do seem to hold tune better than others, but I think that gets back to positive compensation, but I can't prove that and I don't claim to. That could come down to seemingly tiny variables such as barrel steel. I'm working with a bbl maker along those lines a bit with cryo treatment. But again, I'm not claiming to know that's the answer. He thinks it might be a factor, fwiw.

[tim]

“The biggest thing that is still left to figure out is why some barrels/rifles do seem to hold tune better than others, but I think that gets back to positive compensation, but I can't prove that and I don't claim to. That could come down to seemingly tiny variables such as barrel steel. I'm working with a bbl maker along those lines a bit with cryo treatment. But again, I'm not claiming to know that's the answer. He thinks it might be a factor, fwiw.”

So now a question.
With all of your personal testing, how many barrels would you say got tested?
What, if any, evaluation might have been done to qualify those barrels? Any thought what so ever by you or others to determine if any test barrel was “ average” what ever that is or, more to the point, above average.

Lastly, FWIW, nobody has ever claimed a properly tuned gun will shoot ALL ammo and the best gun/ tune will not make sub par ammo competitive. That said, sub par is an elusive term since it is well known some good ammo will sometimes excel in a different barrel configuration completely seperate from tune.