Tuners!!!!

[tonykharper]

There has been a lot of discussion about tuners on another channel lately.

These discussions often spawn a new batch of what has been called. "Jack in the box tuner twisters" (Thanks BH for the term)

I know this post will rub many the wrong way but it is written with good intentions.

There is a time to twist tuners, and there is a time not to. Twist away until your heart is content at home, on the range, in your back yard, wherever.

But when you are at a match, and you have other shooters beside you please don't do it.

Show up at a match with your rifle ready to shoot. I know this isn't always possible, you may need to check your zero, but finding the "best tune, or even a better tune" during the time allotted for a target just isn't good.

Remember the clock is running, and each time you turn that tuner you lose your zero. The hole you were in just got deeper. Not only are you looking for a better tune, you also have to re zero, and you have less time to do it.

I know you are hoping you will dial that tuner just a click or two, and all of a sudden everything will be great, but I promise you, that doesn't often happen.

Reaching up and turning that tuner distracts shooters on both sides of you. In doors, where the benches are close it is really bad.

In the long run it is better to shoot it as you brought it or find another lot of ammo. Even changing lot numbers has a down side, but not as deep as dialing that tuner.

TKH

[burtona]

Have to disagree to some extent. If a shooter beside you distracts you when twisting a tuner a click or two then you are not concentrating on your own shooting enough. It's important to not let whats going on around you distract you from paying attention to your shooting.
ALso, in my experience it's helpul at times during a match to move the tuner a click or to to keep up with changing conditions. It's my alloted time during a match to complete a target and I should use it as I need. If you are beside me it's your job to concentrate on your own shooting and not be bothered by what I may be doing.
Dave

[mwezell]

Have to disagree to some extent. If a shooter beside you distracts you when twisting a tuner a click or two then you are not concentrating on your own shooting enough. It's important to not let whats going on around you distract you from paying attention to your shooting.
ALso, in my experience it's helpul at times during a match to move the tuner a click or to to keep up with changing conditions. It's my alloted time during a match to complete a target and I should use it as I need. If you are beside me it's your job to concentrate on your own shooting and not be bothered by what I may be doing.
Dave

Perzactly! Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking.

[tonykharper]

Have to disagree to some extent. If a shooter beside you distracts you when twisting a tuner a click or two then you are not concentrating on your own shooting enough. It's important to not let whats going on around you distract you from paying attention to your shooting.
ALso, in my experience it's helpul at times during a match to move the tuner a click or to to keep up with changing conditions. It's my alloted time during a match to complete a target and I should use it as I need. If you are beside me it's your job to concentrate on your own shooting and not be bothered by what I may be doing.
Dave

Guys,

I don't want to be argumentative so I won't. But I will say that what goes on around you, and even behind you, can make a big difference in where your bullets go.

In doors is where this shows up best, but it is still there outdoors.

Preparation and situation awareness applies to shooting as it does to most other things.

I'll leave it there, but I would like to invite you guys to Piney Hill this winter and I think I can demonstrate my point.

burtona, if you can turn a tuner and "keep up with conditions my hat is off to you.

TKH

[tim]

Have to disagree to some extent. If a shooter beside you distracts you when twisting a tuner a click or two then you are not concentrating on your own shooting enough. It's important to not let whats going on around you distract you from paying attention to your shooting.
ALso, in my experience it's helpul at times during a match to move the tuner a click or to to keep up with changing conditions. It's my alloted time during a match to complete a target and I should use it as I need. If you are beside me it's your job to concentrate on your own shooting and not be bothered by what I may be doing.
Dave

Of course you, I assume you know, in IR 50/50 anyway, you are NOT allowed to do anything disruptive including rising from the bench.
Now I care not what your tuning habits may or may not be, each to his own, but yours is a rationalization, above is a rule.

That said I would hope,Tony, you continue to expand on an interesting thread.
Personally, I would welcome any thoughts you may have on tuning, re tuning for brand changes and or weather, etc.......the deep end of the pool.

[tonykharper]

Of course you, I assume you know, in IR 50/50 anyway, you are NOT allowed to do anything disruptive including rising from the bench.
Now I care not what your tuning habits may or may not be, each to his own, but yours is a rationalization above is a rule.

That said I would hope,Tony, you continue to expand on an interesting thread.
Personally, I would welcome any thoughts you may have on tuning, re tuning for brand changes and or weather, etc.......the deep end of the pool.

Good hearing from you Tim.

I am no tuning expert. I do not know how to perfectly tune a rifle. However, it is my belief that a tuned rifle has to do with all of it's parts, not just the device mounted on the end of the barrel.

As Iven Wells would say it is the entire "package".

Some rifles, perhaps many rifles can not be tuned for peak performance due to numerous problems unrelated to it's vibration envelope.

Yes, the vibration envelope is important, but not until all the other problems are solved.

TKH

[tim]

I hear that.
I would guess these threads also attract quite a few newbies as well and many are less likely to think of the ”whole package” mindset.
Would you offer up a few thoughts on some potential areas to be mindful of ?

[drknite]

I know that this will cause trouble but I have to agree with burtona. I have 20 minutes to shoot the card. If your rifle is not doing what you think it is capable of, do you just say it's not my day are do you move the tuner and try to make it shoot better.
I do know that one of the best shooters in the country watches the temperature and humidity and makes some adjustments accordingly. As Mike Ezell said temperature effects ammo. I also know shooters who never move their tuner, and do well. Concentration is not one of my better qualities but someone getting up to move a tuner should not cause others to lose their concentration. JMHO.

[mwezell]

I know that this will cause trouble but I have to agree with burtona. I have 20 minutes to shoot the card. If your rifle is not doing what you think it is capable of, do you just say it's not my day are do you move the tuner and try to make it shoot better.
I do know that one of the best shooters in the country watches the temperature and humidity and makes some adjustments accordingly. As Mike Ezell said temperature effects ammo. I also know shooters who never move their tuner, and do well. Concentration is not one of my better qualities but someone getting up to move a tuner should not cause others to lose their concentration. JMHO.

FWIW, I never get up to move my tuner. I can reach it from my stool to give it a small nudge when needed.

[tim]

FWIW, I never get up to move my tuner. I can reach it from my stool to give it a small nudge when needed.

Ah....short barrel syndrome.
Hell, if everybody was like you it would never be an issue.
Some of these guys look like they’re having a seizure.

[John Kielly]

Who was it once averred (on this site as I recall) that it was his constitutional right to smoke cigars on the bench.

[burtona]

I know that this will cause trouble but I have to agree with burtona. I have 20 minutes to shoot the card. If your rifle is not doing what you think it is capable of, do you just say it's not my day are do you move the tuner and try to make it shoot better.
I do know that one of the best shooters in the country watches the temperature and humidity and makes some adjustments accordingly. As Mike Ezell said temperature effects ammo. I also know shooters who never move their tuner, and do well. Concentration is not one of my better qualities but someone getting up to move a tuner should not cause others to lose their concentration. JMHO.

Temperature also affects barrels. If you don't believe so try holding a match back and forth under a tuning fork.
Years ago when I shot IR-50/50 I found I sometimes needed to move the tuner out a click or two as the day heated up. It's about knowing what your rifle/ammo is capable of and recognizing when it's not performing at it's best.
Dave

[George Atkins]

There has been a lot of discussion about tuners on another channel lately.

These discussions often spawn a new batch of what has been called. "Jack in the box tuner twisters" (Thanks BH for the term)

I know this post will rub many the wrong way but it is written with good intentions.

There is a time to twist tuners, and there is a time not to. Twist away until your heart is content at home, on the range, in your back yard, wherever.

But when you are at a match, and you have other shooters beside you please don't do it.

Show up at a match with your rifle ready to shoot. I know this isn't always possible, you may need to check your zero, but finding the "best tune, or even a better tune" during the time allotted for a target just isn't good.

Remember the clock is running, and each time you turn that tuner you lose your zero. The hole you were in just got deeper. Not only are you looking for a better tune, you also have to re zero, and you have less time to do it.

I know you are hoping you will dial that tuner just a click or two, and all of a sudden everything will be great, but I promise you, that doesn't often happen.

Reaching up and turning that tuner distracts shooters on both sides of you. In doors, where the benches are close it is really bad.

In the long run it is better to shoot it as you brought it or find another lot of ammo. Even changing lot numbers has a down side, but not as deep as dialing that tuner.

TKH

Most likely it would be better to just get up from the bench and go get another rifle, come back to the bench and start over. That's how the pros do it. Right Tony? LOL and no, it did NOT bother me at all.

BTW Kenny S. has a copyright on the Jack in the Tuner Twister moniker.

[langenc]

Guys,

I don't want to be argumentative so I won't. But I will say that what goes on around you, and even behind you, can make a big difference in where your bullets go.

In doors is where this shows up best, but it is still there outdoors.

Preparation and situation awareness applies to shooting as it does to most other things.

I'll leave it there, but I would like to invite you guys to Piney Hill this winter and I think I can demonstrate my point.

burtona, if you can turn a tuner and "keep up with conditions my hat is off to you.

TKH

Couple yrs ago I had two blabby women behind my bench. I should have TOLD em to take it somewhere else.
I know that is not exactly tuner twisting but it sure as hxxl was distracting.

[kseatm]

There has been a lot of discussion about tuners on another channel lately.

These discussions often spawn a new batch of what has been called. "Jack in the box tuner twisters" (Thanks BH for the term)

I know this post will rub many the wrong way but it is written with good intentions.

There is a time to twist tuners, and there is a time not to. Twist away until your heart is content at home, on the range, in your back yard, wherever.

But when you are at a match, and you have other shooters beside you please don't do it.

Show up at a match with your rifle ready to shoot. I know this isn't always possible, you may need to check your zero, but finding the "best tune, or even a better tune" during the time allotted for a target just isn't good.

Remember the clock is running, and each time you turn that tuner you lose your zero. The hole you were in just got deeper. Not only are you looking for a better tune, you also have to re zero, and you have less time to do it.

I know you are hoping you will dial that tuner just a click or two, and all of a sudden everything will be great, but I promise you, that doesn't often happen.

Reaching up and turning that tuner distracts shooters on both sides of you. In doors, where the benches are close it is really bad.

In the long run it is better to shoot it as you brought it or find another lot of ammo. Even changing lot numbers has a down side, but not as deep as dialing that tuner.

TKH

Tony,
Just saw this thread and wanted to reply. Since I hold the TM on "Jack In The Box Tuner Twister" , I figure you'll give me some leeway on this one.

First, I respect the hell out of you and what you've accomplished. When I've asked, even as a newbie, you've given me some great advice in a lot of areas of this sport. In all honesty, I've probably learned as much, if not more, from you than anyone in this game. From the first time I met you to the last time we shot against one another, you've been nothing but a great competitor and good guy.

I kind of want to disagree with you in that I see nothing wrong with moving a tuner a click or two during a match. As long as it doesn't distract anyone. I've only shot with a few people who actually stand up and move their tuner during a match. But have shot next to lots of people who will reach up (while remaining seated) and click their tuners if their gun isn't doing what they expected. Is it wrong for them to do this? Heck if I know. But they pay their money and they shoot their ammo for a chance to win a match, so who am I to say they shouldn't do it? But then, your main point is that moving a tuner isn't going to save a person during a match. In a perfect world, I'd say that's correct. But then I look at instances where I've moved a tuner a few clicks and all of a sudden my gun started shooting awesome again. Just from one card to another... does it make sense? You wouldn't think so, and there are lots of folks who have success never moving their tuners. But then, maybe they're just better than me, or have better guns? Don't know for sure, but if it is helping me, I will feel no shame reaching up and moving a tuner a click.

Does this affect people next to you. I'd say yes. But to what extent? Is it a concentration issue, or is it a vibration issue that comes through to the bench you're shooting off of? I know for a fact at some ranges, just the firing of a rifle next to you can affect how your gun behaves. At some, it doesn't seem to matter as much. Robert Oates and I were sitting next to each other at Kettlefoot once and this point was driven home in a huge way. But most people I know play the game of timing their shots to the people next to them. Especially indoors at venues such as Piney Hill. At almost any match I've been to, the people on each side talk to me and we figure out how we're going to plan our shots in sequence. If someone deviates, it's not really their fault. People get focused on things and might forget, so I just pay attention to what they're doing and play off of their habits or sequences. Same with people getting up from a bench. Some don't ask, but most do say they're ready to get up so you can hold off on your shot sequence. Or will watch you and when you're not in the process of shooting, they will mention that they're going to get up. This isn't an abnormal situation IME. Have had it happen too many times. Most people will do what's right. There's always going to be that one person who wants to push things, but that's the world we live in. And sometimes people might do something that offends someone, but it usually is that they just forget or weren't paying attention. Rarely is it a case of someone knowingly doing something that affects others while they are shooting.

It's the same with anyone moving a tuner. Very rarely will someone not mention that they are going to move their tuner beforehand. Either before the match or while shooting a target, they usually will pick a time when I'm not shooting and ask if it's ok. There's nothing that says they have to, but it's nice on their part. Personally always asked permission first if I wanted to do anything like that. Now, not saying everyone does this everytime, but most people are pretty well behaved.

The one thing that irked me in all of this isn't the people moving a tuner, people jumping up from the bench, people going back to the staging area to get other ammo or other guns, or even the people who might be getting a little loud when talking behind the firing line. What bothers me is when people put others down for such behavior but then when it might benefit themselves, it's ok.

I don't shoot this anymore, will never shoot it again, and never was all that great at it to begin with. So my opinion doesn't matter. But not all things in any of this are as cut and dried as some make them out to be. Just hope people keep that in mind. Yes, some people can be rude, some might mistakenly break a rule here and there. But most try to do what's right. And some even might believe that moving a tuner a click or three helps them. One of the more famous "tuner twisters" is one of the best shooters in this sport and has won about all there is to win. Is he wrong? I don't know who's right or wrong, or even if there is a right or wrong. But if someone moving a tuner a few clicks bothers me, I've got bigger issues going on.

JMO. None of what I've posted has been mean spirited or meant to put anyone down. It's just sometimes things get said online that don't jibe with what happens in the real world.

It was a pleasure shooting with and against you. Take care and good luck in the future.

Kenny