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Thread: Tuners!!!!

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    “The biggest thing that is still left to figure out is why some barrels/rifles do seem to hold tune better than others, but I think that gets back to positive compensation, but I can't prove that and I don't claim to. That could come down to seemingly tiny variables such as barrel steel. I'm working with a bbl maker along those lines a bit with cryo treatment. But again, I'm not claiming to know that's the answer. He thinks it might be a factor, fwiw.”

    So now a question.
    With all of your personal testing, how many barrels would you say got tested?
    What, if any, evaluation might have been done to qualify those barrels? Any thought what so ever by you or others to determine if any test barrel was “ average” what ever that is or, more to the point, above average.

    Lastly, FWIW, nobody has ever claimed a properly tuned gun will shoot ALL ammo and the best gun/ tune will not make sub par ammo competitive. That said, sub par is an elusive term since it is well known some good ammo will sometimes excel in a different barrel configuration completely seperate from tune.
    Four barrels and or rifles were tested. Accuracy was very good on all of them but that's beside the point because it wasn't an accuracy test, it was about vibration, frequencies, timing, and the effect of a tuner on where the bbl is at bullet exit. I wouldn't want to use a bad bbl for the testing but again, it wasn't about that, at that point. Now, in hindsight, there might be something to learn, say pre and post cryo, for example but that wasn't the intent at the time.

    As to your last comments, as I said, some of my worst lots outta the gate wound up being some of my best ammo but at a different tuner setting. I'm not sure what you're saying about all lots working at a given setting or not. Several, many, most, some but not all? Hmm. You hammer me to explain how a sporter can perform well without a tuner but now you say that's only with some lots. Lot changes are exactly like changing the load in cf. So yes, you are tuning by changing lots. You find something that shoots and that doesn't mean it's the only load that will shoot well in it...just like cf. I have several cf loads with even different powders that perform very near the same as a totally different load, at the same tuner setting. Then I also can often move the tuner a little bit and get what looks like a bad load to shoot as well as anything. Moving a tuner accomplishes the same thing as changing loads/lots. If the bullet exits when the bbl is where it shoots small, then it'll shoot small, with different loads and or lots. It may well be at a different frequency, but it still times the bullet and bbl up for good accuracy, either way, moving the tuner or changing the load/ammo. Frequency is just a way of stating how far apart nodes are. They repeat over and over, so you can often shoot just as well at multiple spots and totally different nodes along the sine wave. Just gonna throw a random number out there of lets say 2000hz. Lets say the gun is hammering there. It can also hammer at, another random number..3000hz. Different node but as long as the bullet is exiting at top or bottom of the sine wave, it can and likely will shoot small. Moving a tuner has a negligible affect on frequency but it can and does change phase time. What that means is that we literally can move the top of the sine way, left or right, to coincide with bullet exit. This can be done even without changing frequency. And we can do that at this node, the next, the next the next and so on. Again, tune just repeats over and over. My method is just that, a method based on all of this but you can get there other ways. This just breaks it down to a more methodical approach than turning a tuner randomly.
    Last edited by mwezell; 07-21-2022 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #212
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    My Results

    Hello Mike,
    I want to thank you for sharing your tuning target. It supports what I have been doing for the past few years. I have inserted my tuning target for one of my rifles. The groups do indeed increase and decrease in relation to the 'Y' axis dependent on the tuner setting. In this case, I noticed that the 'sweet spot' would probably end up being around 125. That is the reason for the second row of groups - to narrow the selection. Thus, I could see that it would end up around 122. The third row solidified the final setting at 121.
    I also collect the group sizes in Excel. It is convenient to see the values coincide with the target.
    Thank you again.
    Matt

    RED TUNING TARGET 4 JULY 2022.pdf

  3. #213
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    The very first line in your quote is why I posed the question an IMHO is the very essence of much of the entire post tune adjustment debate.
    EVERYTHING, every single issue relating to barrel performance including staying in tune relates to the ability to select those less than common select barrels to begin with, including what the “ old timers” would call the ability for a slug to “go to sleep” well before muzzle exit, probably relating to dimension, taper lap, steel, and whatever else.
    You might, ponder that.
    My interest, here, and elsewhere, is not to argue with you personally, but to reinforce to long term fact that myself and many others, many top level killer shooters and gunsmiths subscribe to the opposite of your preachings which would suggest to a dumb guy like me that depending on your platform and variety of ammo, you are missing as much as not and lots of new guys, should they swallow wholeheartedly are going to be chasing their ass for years down the road. I sure as hell am not about to change based on personal results and you have a vested interest in not changing so there we are, but you have stated directly about some ballistic considerations not entirely understood…….THAT we completely agree on.
    Remember, you have testing , some of us have results over the years, with several rifles and many years at this. Nobody ever won a match based on testing reports.
    Last edited by tim; 07-21-2022 at 05:09 PM.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikedrop View Post
    Hello Mike,
    I want to thank you for sharing your tuning target. It supports what I have been doing for the past few years. I have inserted my tuning target for one of my rifles. The groups do indeed increase and decrease in relation to the 'Y' axis dependent on the tuner setting. In this case, I noticed that the 'sweet spot' would probably end up being around 125. That is the reason for the second row of groups - to narrow the selection. Thus, I could see that it would end up around 122. The third row solidified the final setting at 121.
    I also collect the group sizes in Excel. It is convenient to see the values coincide with the target.
    Thank you again.
    Matt

    RED TUNING TARGET 4 JULY 2022.pdf
    Nice Matt! Looks like your gun is shooting well and I love that you can predict what it does next. I do wonder if your at the top or bottom of the swing. It can be hard to see at 50 yards. Since there are typically about 15-20 marks between sweet spots, I'd do a test from about 135 to 145 or so and see if there is another sweet spot there, then compare poi to your 121 setting. But it'll shoot small at top and bottom. I'd pick out the two sweet spots and fire a few groups at both settings. One group means little by itself but if you get predictable results for a couple of groups on both sides of what looks like a sweet spot, you're now looking at 5 groups at both settings. Cool! Thanks!

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    The very first line in your quote is why I posed the question an IMHO is the very essence of much of the entire post tune adjustment debate.
    EVERYTHING, every single issue relating to barrel performance including staying in tune relates to the ability to select those less than common select barrels to begin with, including what the “ old timers” would call the ability for a slug to “go to sleep” well before muzzle exit, probably relating to dimension, taper lap, steel, and whatever else.
    You might, ponder that.
    My interest, here, and elsewhere, is not to argue with you personally, but to reinforce to long term fact that myself and many others, many top level killer shooters and gunsmiths subscribe to the opposite of your preachings which would suggest to a dumb guy like me that depending on your platform and variety of ammo, you are missing as much as not and lots of new guys, should they swallow wholeheartedly are going to be chasing their ass for years down the road. I sure as hell am not about to change based on personal results and you have a vested interest in not changing so there we are, but you have stated directly about some ballistic considerations not entirely understood…….THAT we completely agree on.
    You're full of crap. Every single post you have made here and elsewhere has been to argue and attack me and yes, you've made it personal more than once.
    Regardless of that, the test was done with bbls that were winning quality but again, they still vibrate and that's what we were measuring. It wasn't about how small they'd shoot, but most anybody would like to have bbls that shot as well as they did. Most of the testing could've been done without hanging a target at all. In fact, some was done in a lab before going to the range and confirming things, with targets hung. In THIS regard, it meant nothing. But yes, ultimately accuracy means everything and my method has worked well. Interestingly, you could predict group shape by watching the computer screen(o-scope) because those shapes are predicated on where they occur along the sine wave. But you do whatever floats your boat. If I'm missing as much as not, how much is everyone missing that has never done vibration analysis at all? It's a method. Most of my posts have been about why it works, physically. Some people care about that and some don't but either way, do what works for you.
    Last edited by mwezell; 07-21-2022 at 05:24 PM.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikedrop View Post
    Hello Mike,
    I want to thank you for sharing your tuning target. It supports what I have been doing for the past few years. I have inserted my tuning target for one of my rifles. The groups do indeed increase and decrease in relation to the 'Y' axis dependent on the tuner setting. In this case, I noticed that the 'sweet spot' would probably end up being around 125. That is the reason for the second row of groups - to narrow the selection. Thus, I could see that it would end up around 122. The third row solidified the final setting at 121.
    I also collect the group sizes in Excel. It is convenient to see the values coincide with the target.
    Thank you again.
    Matt

    RED TUNING TARGET 4 JULY 2022.pdf
    I was looking at the target and started once to ask what tuner you were using because the group shapes weren't quite what I typically see with mine or a Harrells. Then I saw your notes at the top of the page.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    I was looking at the target and started once to ask what tuner you were using because the group shapes weren't quite what I typically see with mine or a Harrells. Then I saw your notes at the top of the page.
    It is a Harrell's tuner. And as soon as our winds up here decide to calm down for an hour or two I will surely get to the range and fire a series starting with 125 up to 150. And see if there is another rise in the 'Y' axis.
    Thank you.
    Matt

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikedrop View Post
    It is a Harrell's tuner. And as soon as our winds up here decide to calm down for an hour or two I will surely get to the range and fire a series starting with 125 up to 150. And see if there is another rise in the 'Y' axis.
    Thank you.
    Matt
    I was referring to your notes saying "two mid bbl tuners and blue tube", fwiw. That can and will change the value of each adjustment a bit but it's not typically a great big change. IME, it's pretty amazing how little those huge changes actually translate to how how many marks between in and out of tune. For example, cf here but, a 30" 1.250 straight is typically only about 1 mark more from completely in to completely out of tune vs say a 21 inch hv or lv contour bbl. Not a huge difference as compared to the big difference in those two bbl scenarios. Just my 2 cents but yes, I'd do as you said and test that 125-150 range, then compare poi's to your previous sweet spot. It will help to do those two setting next to one another, on a single horizontal line. Thanks again! Looking good

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    I didn't ask what you are doing. Unless your system works for any and all lots, it's not a system at all. Rather, it's you testing lots and finding some that shoot at your tuner setting. So there it is. Unless you can shoot ALL lots competitively at a single setting, I just answered your question. If all lots can shoot competitively at a single setting, then you got me. I can't explain that because there is no physical explanation for it.

    What I found while shooting ara/psl was that every bit of eley red/black and Lapua that I shot could be competitive but not always at the same setting. And yes, some lots were better than others. But rather than scrapping a lot that didn't shoot well outta the gate, I did establish a system, one where I know how far out of tune I am on the tuner by the size and shapes of the groups, much like cf guys do when loading at the range. So, I simply move the tuner accordingly and some of those "bad" lots, became some of my better shooting lots. It's explained in detail on the other site. Some good info there if you had actually read it instead of this same old crap.

    Got any "junk" eley or lapua? Wanna run a test? Post pics of some bad groups and I think I can help you tune your rifle to it.
    How about I send you some ammo and you shoot it in your rifle? since I don't know what I am doing I don't want to screw it up. like you tell someone who gives you a barrel measurement and you bore your tuner wrong, and they can't get it on the barrel. sound familiar?

    Lee

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
    How about I send you some ammo and you shoot it in your rifle? since I don't know what I am doing I don't want to screw it up. like you tell someone who gives you a barrel measurement and you bore your tuner wrong, and they can't get it on the barrel. sound familiar?

    Lee
    And here we go. Still no answer? A set of calipers is a dangerous tool in a fools hand. He thinks he's a machinist or something.

    Lee, I'm use to working in the tool and die industry and machining. I've been doing it in some capacity for 30 something years. Could I have made a mistake? Sure. But you never let me check it. Could that be because it measured correctly and that you gave me a bad measurement of your barrel? I guess we'll never know the truth to that huh?

    That's the rest of that story and a glimpse into why I think you are a person of low or no integrity. You just confirmed it to everyone. Thank you.

    The above poster is the sole reason I no longer bore tuners to a measurement provided by the customer. I offered to check it and make it right but he didn't want to ship it back. I offered him a solution and he got online and bashed me over this. All this for what was a free service if I recall.

    BTW, do you have back trouble?


    Still no answer?
    Last edited by mwezell; 07-22-2022 at 04:20 AM.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    And here we go. Still no answer? A set of calipers is a dangerous tool in a fools hand. He thinks he's a machinist or something.

    Lee, I'm use to working in the tool and die industry and machining. I've been doing it in some capacity for 30 something years. Could I have made a mistake? Sure. But you never let me check it. Could that be because it measured correctly and that you gave me a bad measurement of your barrel? I guess we'll never know the truth to that huh?

    That's the rest of that story and a glimpse into why I think you are a person of low or no integrity. You just confirmed it to everyone. Thank you.

    The above poster is the sole reason I no longer bore tuners to a measurement provided by the customer. I offered to check it and make it right but he didn't want to ship it back. I offered him a solution and he got online and bashed me over this. All this for what was a free service if I recall.

    BTW, do you have back trouble?


    Still no answer?
    I have back trouble. It's been a nightmare for over 25 years.

    And it's no joking matter.

    May you never have it.

    Take care,

    Greg

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    And here we go. Still no answer? A set of calipers is a dangerous tool in a fools hand. He thinks he's a machinist or something.

    Lee, I'm use to working in the tool and die industry and machining. I've been doing it in some capacity for 30 something years. Could I have made a mistake? Sure. But you never let me check it. Could that be because it measured correctly and that you gave me a bad measurement of your barrel? I guess we'll never know the truth to that huh?

    That's the rest of that story and a glimpse into why I think you are a person of low or no integrity. You just confirmed it to everyone. Thank you.

    The above poster is the sole reason I no longer bore tuners to a measurement provided by the customer. I offered to check it and make it right but he didn't want to ship it back. I offered him a solution and he got online and bashed me over this. All this for what was a free service if I recall.

    BTW, do you have back trouble?


    Still no answer?
    I wasn't talking about the tuner I bought from you! yes as stupid as you think I am I have others who contact me and tell me things after they speak with you. the most recent was about 2 weeks ago, you talked you way out of that sale.

    and for the record I waited 6 weeks while you shot matches after I paid you in full for the tuner. you did not mention I would have to wait. your memory from 8 years ago isn't that good. I did not mention the wrong bore until about 2 years later on RFC in our many exchanges about tuning. but is it typical of you to blame the buyer from what I am told.
    think what you like about me but privately your reputation is not very good after people speak with you on the phone.


    I am done here like always you insult me but won't explain why what I am doing is not possible because it is against science.

    Lee
    Last edited by Hi-NV Shooter; 07-22-2022 at 08:16 AM.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-NV Shooter View Post
    I wasn't talking about the tuner I bought from you! yes as stupid as you think I am I have others who contact me and tell me things after they speak with you. the most recent was about 2 weeks ago, you talked you way out of that sale.

    and for the record I waited 6 weeks while you shot matches after I paid you in full for the tuner. you did not mention I would have to wait. your memory from 8 years ago isn't that good. I did not mention the wrong bore until about 2 years later on RFC in our many exchanges about tuning.
    think what you like about me but privately your reputation is not very good after people speak with you on the phone.

    Lee

    That sucks because I only do tuner orders by phone. Lol!
    Since I don't bore them to fit the bbl, you made that up.
    I have lost sales for not boring them out. It is my decision not to. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.
    Still no answer, Lee?
    Last edited by mwezell; 07-22-2022 at 12:14 PM.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    That sucks because I only do tuner orders by phone. Lol!
    Since I don't bore them to fit the bbl, you made that up.
    I have lost sales for not boring them out. It is my decision not to. I'm guessing that's what you're referring to.
    Still no answer, Lee?
    Howdy Mike,

    He said he was done here.

    Why try to get him to continue when he said he's done?

    I saw what you deleted/edited, by the way.

    I know I'm not alone in seeing it.

    I almost quoted it to ask you why you would do that.

    Would you want someone doing that to you?

    I'd hope not.

    I think you are better than that.

    Take care,

    Greg

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by 404tbang View Post
    Howdy Mike,

    He said he was done here.

    Why try to get him to continue when he said he's done?

    I saw what you deleted/edited, by the way.

    I know I'm not alone in seeing it.

    I almost quoted it to ask you why you would do that.

    Would you want someone doing that to you?

    I'd hope not.

    I think you are better than that.

    Take care,

    Greg
    I hope he is done but I must've missed where he said that he is. We'll see. Looks like he added that to the post after I had read it and likely while I was replying.
    I deleted it for the same reason you mention but I shouldn't have to put up with his attacks either. It had simply gone too far. Enough is enough. What I deleted was actually biting my tongue. Like I said, I hope it's done. I'll stop when the attacks on me stop. It's all fun and games until I fight back with the same tactics, I guess. Where were you while he was slandering me? Now, I defend myself and apparently that was in poor taste. Thanks but I held that back for a long time(years) and now it's gone so lets move on.
    Last edited by mwezell; 07-22-2022 at 12:58 PM.

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