working a load up with a new powder

Rflshootr

Member
If you were working a new load with a new powder in a hunting rifle, and the 2 smallest groups were 1/2 a grain apart & the bullet seat is the same from the last powder, knowing you were going to rework the seat depth, would you pick the group that was triange shaped or a group that had 2 in 1 hole & another that opened the group to the same size as the triange one? All groups were 3 shots as a preliminary test for a powder/ bullet combination that I only had very limited data on.
I had a 2 1/2 grain spread on the loads changing the charge in .5 grain increments (6 loads) and could definitely see the groups open, then close & then open again as the powder increased. Being a preliminary test I didn't shoot anything over a chronograph. That will be next.
 
Did you shoot over a set of windflags? What did you do to indicate the conditions were the same, for a valid comparison?
 
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As Abintx suggested rig up some wind flags, at least 2, one at about 30 yards and one about 60 yards. Three would be better, but... Then shoot 5 3-shot groups of each and consider the load with the lowest average (aggregate) of their 5 groups.
 
... would you pick the group that was triange shaped or a group that had 2 in 1 hole & another that opened the group to the same size as the triange one?

The characteristics of one group compared to another (one=triangle shape; one= 2 in one hole) tell you absolutely nothing about the accuracy potential of either powder charge. As indicated above, you must fire several groups (preferably 5-shot groups) with each powder charge, then compute average group size for each powder charge. You will just be fooling yourself if you base your decision on only a few 3-shot groups.
 
I had flags out but there was perfect conditions today....dead calm. I'll shoot the aggs next, over the crony. Thanks guys.
 
I wonder if people shoot at the range to make themselves feel better or getting ready for a hunt. I believe that if you are a hunter you can get a load without all this messing around. If my hunting rifle looks better than 1 MOA at 300 yards, why spend any more time or money getting the last .100moa out of it? I don't care what my chronograph says. If I get a load that will shoot less than a MOA at 300yds with a clean, cold barrel I pack up my stuff and go home. If you like to hang around the range and fool around, go for it. It will kill no animals though.
 
Butch probably because most of us want to squeeze every last ounce of accuracy out of every rifle we own and would like to see every shot go in the same hole. Wether or not that happens is another story. Most of us here have a hobby called shooting. Being behind the trigger is the only way that I know of to participate in that. Wether it is a rimfire or a 300 Super duper Mag Ultra boomer or anything in between, shooting is a hobby that you have to spend money on to particpate. Besides, isn't that what this forum is all about?
 
I wonder if people shoot at the range to make themselves feel better or getting ready for a hunt. I believe that if you are a hunter you can get a load without all this messing around. If my hunting rifle looks better than 1 MOA at 300 yards, why spend any more time or money getting the last .100moa out of it? I don't care what my chronograph says. If I get a load that will shoot less than a MOA at 300yds with a clean, cold barrel I pack up my stuff and go home. If you like to hang around the range and fool around, go for it. It will kill no animals though.

I'll have to side with Butch here when it comes to hunting rifles. Due to the varying temps that most hunting rifles are subjected to, sometime squezing the last little accuracy out of a gun will hurt you at the big moment (that huge wall hanger). I tell this from experience. You want a load/rifle that will shoot consitantly in the varying weather and altitudes. I have found that the most accurate load at a given time can leave you when you need it. The first couple of years that I own a hunting rifle, it the test years. I wil develope a load slightly early to hunting season (never in the summer), looking for some basic charateristics and requirements. For a deer/elk rifle. I want a rifle to come in under 3/4MOA for a three shot group. I also want that group to form a triangler shape on the target. These triangler shaped targets seems to have less wind surprises. Of course, this doesn't mean I stop as soon as I get to 3/4 MOA. Here is my basic hunting rifle routine in .270 win.

1. Get Brass Ready (trim, prep, fireform, etc)
2. Set seating depth with a .010 into lands (if you can, if not, then as long as you can with enough bullet in the case that it will never cause a problem).
3. Two shots at a time, work up to hunting velocity range. For a .270 Win and 130 grn bullet: 3000-3100fps.
4. Three shot groups, varying bullet seating depth .005 at a time and watch the group pattern and velocity. Looking for the smallest triangler group I can get. Then don't pay attention to the wind flags and see what the group does. Pick the least wind effect, with exceptable velocity (hunting range), and MOA.
5. Next, I shoot the load over varying temps during the winter (single digit to 55 degrees is what I like). Also checking velocity when I can. Do not keep ammo and rifle in the warm and whip them out and shoot when it's cold. Let the ammo and rifle be the common outside temp.
6. I watch the patterns for two years and improve on the average over the spectrum if I can. Then I load 30-50 rnds and the gun is good for several years.


I will hunt with this rifle the first year if everything looks really good. I hate to own a hunting rifle that hasn't killed something.

I keep mentioning velocity and I think this is an area of little knowledge for a lot of hand loaders loading hunting rifles. Hunting bullet manufacturers design hunting bullet to function within a specifically specified veloctiy range. Now, in the last decade or so (really started with the nosler ballistic tip) this veloctiy range has widened but it still very important to understand and research should always be done to find out bullets "operating range" and the type of game it is designed for. I don't care how accurate a round is, if it is not in the bullets velocity range, it will more than likely let you down. Remember...a hunting rifle is for hunting.

It took me several years, probably 75-100 big game animals and several talks with my gunsmith to understand the balance between cartriages, bullets and velocity. I had lost a few game and noticed odd wound channels during them years. Once I understood what was going on. I haven't lost or missed an animal since 1996. I don't hunt as much big game as I used to (benchrest), but I still get 6-8 a year.

When it comes to hunting rifles...only rifles that kill correctly are fun.

Hovis
 
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Id shoot the 2 and 1 again. See if it was me or the rifle. Get that trigger as light as you feel comfortable with for hunting.
 
Typically, the fellows that I see working up loads for hunting rifles, are testing in one temperature, and hunting in another, which in my mind tends to invalidate charge weight hair splitting. They are also shooting a caliber that has a relatively short barrel life. For that reason, my advice has always been much the same as Butch's. I recommend a pressure test in half grain increments, shot carefully, one shot per load, until pressure signs indicate a safe upper pressure limit has been found. At that point the target should be examined for a range of charge weighs where there was not much change in impact. Then verifying groups should be shot, usually three shots, if the barrel is sporter weight, and the case capacity large. If the mechanical aspects of the rifle are correct, and the component selection appropriate, results are usually quite satisfactory. Once a good load has been found, it can be run over the chronograph to verify that it produces the desired consistency of velocity, and the velocity noted so that scope setting tables can be worked using one of the ballistics programs. Most of the time, I just do all of my testing over the chronograph, but I have to be careful when I am helping some fellows who tend to be overly number driven, ignoring pressure signs in the process. Years ago I developed a descriptive term for this common affliction, I call them "chronograph idiots". Yes, I know, arrogant...Nevertheless, I have seen more than one case ruined, and a few rifle blow ups caused by such a pursuit. That is why I think that it is better for most folks to chronograph after targets, and pressure signs have been used to determine the best load.
 
CHRONOGRAPH ANAL.....

generically i agree with why we do it..our back ground is get the BEST..when infact good or very good will do( i'm not a hunter..but i do see it all the time from hunters who shoot benchrest)

mike in co
Typically, the fellows that I see working up loads for hunting rifles, are testing in one temperature, and hunting in another, which in my mind tends to invalidate charge weight hair splitting. They are also shooting a caliber that has a relatively short barrel life. For that reason, my advice has always been much the same as Butch's. I recommend a pressure test in half grain increments, shot carefully, one shot per load, until pressure signs indicate a safe upper pressure limit has been found. At that point the target should be examined for a range of charge weighs where there was not much change in impact. Then verifying groups should be shot, usually three shots, if the barrel is sporter weight, and the case capacity large. If the mechanical aspects of the rifle are correct, and the component selection appropriate, results are usually quite satisfactory. Once a good load has been found, it can be run over the chronograph to verify that it produces the desired consistency of velocity, and the velocity noted so that scope setting tables can be worked using one of the ballistics programs. Most of the time, I just do all of my testing over the chronograph, but I have to be careful when I am helping some fellows who tend to be overly number driven, ignoring pressure signs in the process. Years ago I developed a descriptive term for this common affliction, I call them "chronograph idiots". Yes, I know, arrogant...Nevertheless, I have seen more than one case ruined, and a few rifle blow ups caused by such a pursuit. That is why I think that it is better for most folks to chronograph after targets, and pressure signs have been used to determine the best load.
 
TOO OPEN ENDED OF A QUESTION...
with a 30'06 at 300 yds or less with a 150 gr...i'd say dump...
just too many factors to "just say no"

mike in co
Oh oh
"when infact good or very good will do"
Like in weighing powder?
 
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