Ok I have purchased a Redding body die for 6/284 and that didn't help,I turned neck down until a fired case would easily accept a bullet. So just got back from firing 10 rounds. With 105gr Berger Hybrid turning necks down reduced case extraction problems,but didn't eliminate this problem a 100% ????? I loaded 10 rounds 5 Berger 105 hybrids seated to touching the lands and 5 105 gr Hornady a-max. Made no adjustment on seating die when seating the A-maxs . Guess what I had zero extraction problems with the A-Maxs ??????? Why ?
On going 6/284 case extraction saga
- Thread starter Worker
- Start date
Sometimes I think you don't want to know why.... you just want the go-ahead to keep jamming on......
Why on EARTH do you make statements like the one about A-max's and Bergers as if they're "the same" just because they're both 105's??? I've watched this "saga" unfurl and finally, for the sake of other reloaders out there must chime in. Things like "I turned the necks and it reduced but didn't eliminate the problem" don't make sense! WHY did you think turning the necks thinner would reduce pressure?
Would you PLEASE start lissening to what the gun is telling you and open your mind to what others might tell you before something pops? I've watched you resist help in the past and I'm probably just walking into a barfight here but reloading is serious stuff.....and others are reading....
First of all, do you shoot over a chronograph? And are you weighing your loads? ALL of your loads?
al-SafetyGeek-inwa
Why on EARTH do you make statements like the one about A-max's and Bergers as if they're "the same" just because they're both 105's??? I've watched this "saga" unfurl and finally, for the sake of other reloaders out there must chime in. Things like "I turned the necks and it reduced but didn't eliminate the problem" don't make sense! WHY did you think turning the necks thinner would reduce pressure?
Would you PLEASE start lissening to what the gun is telling you and open your mind to what others might tell you before something pops? I've watched you resist help in the past and I'm probably just walking into a barfight here but reloading is serious stuff.....and others are reading....
First of all, do you shoot over a chronograph? And are you weighing your loads? ALL of your loads?
al-SafetyGeek-inwa
Open my mind
Guys I had a chamber cast done. Gunsmith( wasn't the one that chambered this bbl) said my neck was .276.( He was wrong) He didn't let me walk away with chamber cast ,just said it was .276. He said " turne necks down to .274" . I did and still had stiff extraction. NOT on lifting the bolt up but on rearward pull of bolt.Measured fired case and it was .274 ... Other posters on other forums felt I needed to buy a body die, because they had a similar problem. Body die fixed it on their rifles,but not mine. But if my neck was .276 then fired neck would of expanded to .276,but it expanded to .274 and still wouldn't fit a bullet after firing . So I turned necks down to .272 and it was at that dimension did my case extraction problems diminish,and a fired case would accept a bullet semi loosly . But with Hornady 105gr A-max I had zero extraction resistance .( Other guys said that was because Hornady bullets are softer than Berger and to seat berger's a bit deeper) So another poster on Handloader.com suggested I turn necks down to .270 so that a loaded round measures .271 and purchase a neck sizing bushing .270 . (Current is .273) My full length sizer sizes necks down to .271.
My loads are 52.0 grs of Re#25 Standared Fed LRP Lupua brass 105gr Berger Hybrid seated to just lightly touching the lands.( Gunsmith that did the chamber cast said throat erosion has begun) for an average velocity of 3,375 30" Brux bbl 8" twist all groups are well under a half MOA at 100yards with no shinning ejector marks are enlarged primer pockets. To make sure my load wasn't too hot I dropped back to 51.0 grs of Re#25 with necks turned down to .274 and had same extraction problem. So when I first started this thread I hadn't zeroed the problem down to one specific thing. But now I know that the neck size is the main problem and secondary problem I believe is I need to use body die when chambering is tough . As far as" opening my mind" ALINWA it was neck tightness all along( Gunsmith that originally chambered this rifle didn't provide reamer deminisions.) This is third bbl I've had on this rifle in this caliber and last two chamberings were no turn necks,I moved out of state and met another gunsmith and had him chamber a new bbl an I didn't think to ask for a no turn chamber.
I use a RCBS chargemaster and I do shoot over a Chronograph . Mostly posters were all just guessing( ALINWA ) and offering conflicting opinions.
Guys I had a chamber cast done. Gunsmith( wasn't the one that chambered this bbl) said my neck was .276.( He was wrong) He didn't let me walk away with chamber cast ,just said it was .276. He said " turne necks down to .274" . I did and still had stiff extraction. NOT on lifting the bolt up but on rearward pull of bolt.Measured fired case and it was .274 ... Other posters on other forums felt I needed to buy a body die, because they had a similar problem. Body die fixed it on their rifles,but not mine. But if my neck was .276 then fired neck would of expanded to .276,but it expanded to .274 and still wouldn't fit a bullet after firing . So I turned necks down to .272 and it was at that dimension did my case extraction problems diminish,and a fired case would accept a bullet semi loosly . But with Hornady 105gr A-max I had zero extraction resistance .( Other guys said that was because Hornady bullets are softer than Berger and to seat berger's a bit deeper) So another poster on Handloader.com suggested I turn necks down to .270 so that a loaded round measures .271 and purchase a neck sizing bushing .270 . (Current is .273) My full length sizer sizes necks down to .271.
My loads are 52.0 grs of Re#25 Standared Fed LRP Lupua brass 105gr Berger Hybrid seated to just lightly touching the lands.( Gunsmith that did the chamber cast said throat erosion has begun) for an average velocity of 3,375 30" Brux bbl 8" twist all groups are well under a half MOA at 100yards with no shinning ejector marks are enlarged primer pockets. To make sure my load wasn't too hot I dropped back to 51.0 grs of Re#25 with necks turned down to .274 and had same extraction problem. So when I first started this thread I hadn't zeroed the problem down to one specific thing. But now I know that the neck size is the main problem and secondary problem I believe is I need to use body die when chambering is tough . As far as" opening my mind" ALINWA it was neck tightness all along( Gunsmith that originally chambered this rifle didn't provide reamer deminisions.) This is third bbl I've had on this rifle in this caliber and last two chamberings were no turn necks,I moved out of state and met another gunsmith and had him chamber a new bbl an I didn't think to ask for a no turn chamber.
I use a RCBS chargemaster and I do shoot over a Chronograph . Mostly posters were all just guessing( ALINWA ) and offering conflicting opinions.
Last edited:
Roger T
Member
.274 nk diameter says little about actual neck thickness if you can't slide a bullet in a fired case the necks are too thick. Get a proper mic. and get actual neck thickness readings. Also your "fired necks" will not stay at your .276 chamber neck diameter (they expand (pressure) then contract).
Last edited:
There you go again with your "explanations"..... You say the gunsmith "was wrong" because "your fired cases were .274." Then you make statements about "turning another two thou off and STILL having extraction problems".... can't you see that this means one thing really obvious??? IF TURNING TWO THOU OFF THE NECK DOESN'T HELP THEN NECK THICKNESS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!!! What, do you think the NECKS are "hanging up in the chamber???"
Necks DO NOT hang up and cause hard extraction, ever. They cannot.
I run dozens of chamberings with less than .001 of total clearance, some with NO clearance at all, slip fit.....and the pressure difference between slipfit and .002 or .004 or even .008 clearance is ZERO.
There is no "minimum" neck wall thickness...... You can turn the necks down to tissue paper if you want, this has no bearing on anything. Around .260 necks are about the commonest 6MM thickness in the target world. Conversely, thick necks DO NOT raise pressure unless they're crimping.......Excess pressure comes from either too much powder or a bind somewhere in the system, thick necks can only cause over- pressure symptoms if they're actually crimping onto the bullet. And the only way they can be crimping onto the bullet is if you're forcing them in. The force required to crimp the bullet is very noticeable, it doesn't "just happen." If your necks actually were .002 larger than the chamber (because "the gunsmith was wrong") YOU COULD NOT CLOSE THE BOLT.
period
I don't care how hamfisted you are you WILL hesitate before hammering the bolt home on a .002 over-sized neck...
LONG necks now, it's more believable that you could force them closed and create pressure. Forcing the bolt home is stupid, but forcing the bolt home on just the end of the neck is conceivable.... And excess pressure will cause extraction problems. Read this again, EXCESS PRESSURE causes extraction problems because it swells the brass up at the base. The only way necks can be related is if they, the necks are causing the excess pressure. And the only way necks can cause excess pressure is because they're being crimped onto the bullet by the neck.
IF (and this is a big if) IF your problem is neck related then it's most likely that your necks are too long, that they need to be trimmed back, but YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH THIS. Many tight-nekkid guns are also set to be trimmed shorter than spec, just to prevent idiots from forcing the bolt home and blowing their face off. But you need to establish this, if you're creating excess pressure by forcing a crimp onto the bullet you're overriding the built-in safety features somehow.
Actually, you need to slow down and establish all of these things before you hurt yourself. You're getting all fussy again and not listening. You're not questioning WHY there's a pressure problem, you're not even accepting that it might BE a pressure problem. You just keep jumping to conclusions, WRONG conclusions regarding neck thickness and it's effect.
Now, if it's not a pressure problem then the next culprit in hard extraction is that the rear of the chamber is too tight. 90% of all extraction problems can be traced to this. Sometimes a "small base die" will help this problem but most often not. In most cases the fix is to enlarge the chamber. Reading your posts where you say there are no ejector marks, no enlarged primer pockets etc lends credence to your argument that it's not a pressure problem. But I must state again, THE NECKS ARE NOT HANGING UP! If the necks are involved in any way, it's to produce excess pressure.....So if you are NOT having pressure issues and the cases are still 'clicking' or sticking in the chamber then the problem is simply too small a chamber. This is very common. IMO 90% of all the custom chambers out there are too small.
ZERO extraction problems are because necks are hanging up in the chamber.....bases hang up, necks do not.
So..... if you really want to back off and find out what's going on then you need to trim some cases back, lop about 30-20thou off so you KNOW the necks aren't binding. Go ahead and turn them as thin as you want, turn them clear down to .268 AND SHORTEN THEM..... but get the necks OUT of the equation and see if your loads still bind up the gun. And back your bullets off the lands. Make absolutely sure you have zero resistance up front and see if the problem goes away........ YOU need to eliminate variables on YOUR gun.... what worked for someone else may not work for you.....there are plenty of guys here qualified to help you eliminate the variables until you find the real culprit but YOU have to follow through, step by step to find YOUR answer. Many of us here, myself included, have had all of your listed problems, several different versions, and many different fixes depending on WHY the problem. And through the process of elimination of variables we can bring you right down to the root of YOUR particular circumstance if you'll listen and take the step-by-step approach.
Or you can just keep on listening to the people guessing......and chucking parts at it.
it's up to you.
We will help if you will listen.
And in the end there will be ANSWERS, not guesses.
And we haven't even gotten to some of your problems...... your statement about "NOT on lifting the bolt up but on rearward pull of bolt" indicates another whole problem regarding your primary extraction......There's a ton of usable information in your posts.
al
Necks DO NOT hang up and cause hard extraction, ever. They cannot.
I run dozens of chamberings with less than .001 of total clearance, some with NO clearance at all, slip fit.....and the pressure difference between slipfit and .002 or .004 or even .008 clearance is ZERO.
There is no "minimum" neck wall thickness...... You can turn the necks down to tissue paper if you want, this has no bearing on anything. Around .260 necks are about the commonest 6MM thickness in the target world. Conversely, thick necks DO NOT raise pressure unless they're crimping.......Excess pressure comes from either too much powder or a bind somewhere in the system, thick necks can only cause over- pressure symptoms if they're actually crimping onto the bullet. And the only way they can be crimping onto the bullet is if you're forcing them in. The force required to crimp the bullet is very noticeable, it doesn't "just happen." If your necks actually were .002 larger than the chamber (because "the gunsmith was wrong") YOU COULD NOT CLOSE THE BOLT.
period
I don't care how hamfisted you are you WILL hesitate before hammering the bolt home on a .002 over-sized neck...
LONG necks now, it's more believable that you could force them closed and create pressure. Forcing the bolt home is stupid, but forcing the bolt home on just the end of the neck is conceivable.... And excess pressure will cause extraction problems. Read this again, EXCESS PRESSURE causes extraction problems because it swells the brass up at the base. The only way necks can be related is if they, the necks are causing the excess pressure. And the only way necks can cause excess pressure is because they're being crimped onto the bullet by the neck.
IF (and this is a big if) IF your problem is neck related then it's most likely that your necks are too long, that they need to be trimmed back, but YOU NEED TO ESTABLISH THIS. Many tight-nekkid guns are also set to be trimmed shorter than spec, just to prevent idiots from forcing the bolt home and blowing their face off. But you need to establish this, if you're creating excess pressure by forcing a crimp onto the bullet you're overriding the built-in safety features somehow.
Actually, you need to slow down and establish all of these things before you hurt yourself. You're getting all fussy again and not listening. You're not questioning WHY there's a pressure problem, you're not even accepting that it might BE a pressure problem. You just keep jumping to conclusions, WRONG conclusions regarding neck thickness and it's effect.
Now, if it's not a pressure problem then the next culprit in hard extraction is that the rear of the chamber is too tight. 90% of all extraction problems can be traced to this. Sometimes a "small base die" will help this problem but most often not. In most cases the fix is to enlarge the chamber. Reading your posts where you say there are no ejector marks, no enlarged primer pockets etc lends credence to your argument that it's not a pressure problem. But I must state again, THE NECKS ARE NOT HANGING UP! If the necks are involved in any way, it's to produce excess pressure.....So if you are NOT having pressure issues and the cases are still 'clicking' or sticking in the chamber then the problem is simply too small a chamber. This is very common. IMO 90% of all the custom chambers out there are too small.
ZERO extraction problems are because necks are hanging up in the chamber.....bases hang up, necks do not.
So..... if you really want to back off and find out what's going on then you need to trim some cases back, lop about 30-20thou off so you KNOW the necks aren't binding. Go ahead and turn them as thin as you want, turn them clear down to .268 AND SHORTEN THEM..... but get the necks OUT of the equation and see if your loads still bind up the gun. And back your bullets off the lands. Make absolutely sure you have zero resistance up front and see if the problem goes away........ YOU need to eliminate variables on YOUR gun.... what worked for someone else may not work for you.....there are plenty of guys here qualified to help you eliminate the variables until you find the real culprit but YOU have to follow through, step by step to find YOUR answer. Many of us here, myself included, have had all of your listed problems, several different versions, and many different fixes depending on WHY the problem. And through the process of elimination of variables we can bring you right down to the root of YOUR particular circumstance if you'll listen and take the step-by-step approach.
Or you can just keep on listening to the people guessing......and chucking parts at it.
it's up to you.
We will help if you will listen.
And in the end there will be ANSWERS, not guesses.
And we haven't even gotten to some of your problems...... your statement about "NOT on lifting the bolt up but on rearward pull of bolt" indicates another whole problem regarding your primary extraction......There's a ton of usable information in your posts.
al
Cases have never been to long ! " That's elementary my dear Watson "
Alinwa my brass is trimmed to 2.160 I've never had a chambering problem . Your the one that's jamming on. You also miss quot me. I shaved an additional .002 off,then the extraction resistance was minimized with berger Hybrids but not eliminated. However when I fired Hornady A-Maxs with out adjusting the seating depth there was absolutely zero extraction resistance.Why? On another forum a poster said the A-Maxs are softer that the Bergers and to next time seat the Bergers a bit deeper along with turn necks down. This is third bbl on this rifle in the caliber and none of other chambers did I have this problem. I've been loading for this cartridge for 14 years and I repeat never had any of these problems in the other two bbls. Right now I don't have time to type any more details. But some of the anomalies I'm experiencing I think is a job for the X files investigators.
Alinwa my brass is trimmed to 2.160 I've never had a chambering problem . Your the one that's jamming on. You also miss quot me. I shaved an additional .002 off,then the extraction resistance was minimized with berger Hybrids but not eliminated. However when I fired Hornady A-Maxs with out adjusting the seating depth there was absolutely zero extraction resistance.Why? On another forum a poster said the A-Maxs are softer that the Bergers and to next time seat the Bergers a bit deeper along with turn necks down. This is third bbl on this rifle in the caliber and none of other chambers did I have this problem. I've been loading for this cartridge for 14 years and I repeat never had any of these problems in the other two bbls. Right now I don't have time to type any more details. But some of the anomalies I'm experiencing I think is a job for the X files investigators.
Boyd Allen
Active member
There are a couple of oddball things that may not have been mentioned. (I confess that I have not read all of the previous posts.) With a minimum body taper case I would check how much primary extraction that you have, the distance that the bold travels rearward from the time that its root hits the cam, to the top of of its opening, be careful not to use the shroud for this measurement since its being threaded into the bolt, means that it extends and retracts relative to the bolt body as the bolt is rotated in the action. The other thing, which may have been mentioned, is that hard carbon deposits in the throat of your chamber that will go undetected without a bore scope inspection, can cause significant pressure excursions. Obviously, diagnosing this sort of thing is much easier with rifle in hand. The reason for all of the guess work is that we do not have that.
No resistance when lifting the bolt .
No abnormal resistance when lifting the bolt at all. But once bolt is fully cammed up? When I pull rearward it immediately resist( However after turning and additional .002 resistance was minimized ,surely that's a clue ?) . But why not when shooting the A-Maxs ? Also I'm getting well under 1/2 MOA at 100 yds. Another odd ball thing is 1st firing of newly sized Lupua brass( Also just cleaning up the necks when turning ) zero resistance issues ,2nd firing same exact load extraction is a nightmare ? Ok I have the new bushing .270 I'm going load up a few rounds and use the Redding body die and report back. Rifle is a Rem SA 700 When turning necks I turn into shoulder about a 1/32 to eliminate the"doughnut "
No abnormal resistance when lifting the bolt at all. But once bolt is fully cammed up? When I pull rearward it immediately resist( However after turning and additional .002 resistance was minimized ,surely that's a clue ?) . But why not when shooting the A-Maxs ? Also I'm getting well under 1/2 MOA at 100 yds. Another odd ball thing is 1st firing of newly sized Lupua brass( Also just cleaning up the necks when turning ) zero resistance issues ,2nd firing same exact load extraction is a nightmare ? Ok I have the new bushing .270 I'm going load up a few rounds and use the Redding body die and report back. Rifle is a Rem SA 700 When turning necks I turn into shoulder about a 1/32 to eliminate the"doughnut "
I don't see any anomalies. As I said before, your posts are full of information, much of it is between the lines.
Your load is too hot and
your charges too variable.
Your chamber is too tight
and your bolt is out of time.
You may realize all this in time, but I doubt it. As you've said, YOU're the expert, this is your third barrel and all.
Your load is too hot and
your charges too variable.
Your chamber is too tight
and your bolt is out of time.
You may realize all this in time, but I doubt it. As you've said, YOU're the expert, this is your third barrel and all.
Putting words in my post
Where did I say I was the expert ? Those 4 things you mention are all presumptuous conjecture . Just got back from desert shooting today's loads. I'll post results during 49er-Bears half time .
Where did I say I was the expert ? Those 4 things you mention are all presumptuous conjecture . Just got back from desert shooting today's loads. I'll post results during 49er-Bears half time .
Just back from shooting
Loaded 17 rounds . 7 rounds Berger 105 Hybrid Neck diameter with bullet .2715 Seating depth using Sinclair nut 3.311 to Bullet ogive Base after using Redding body die .4985 Case length 2.160
10 rounds Hornady 105 Amax Seating depth 3.326 to ogive all other numbers the same
At first it was to windy to set up chronograph fired 3 shots,wind died down and I set up chronograph
Load of 52grs of Re#25 I seated bullet .005 deeper that last firing.
1 3,429
2 3,418
3 3,411
4 3,418
Now with turning necks down to .270 or seating bullets .005 deeper or using Redding body die my extraction problem has been 99% eliminated . But a very very slight resistance . Of all 3 things I did which one nearly eliminated this problem ?
Hornady loads 5 rounds of 52 grs of Re#25 and 5 rounds of 52.6grs of Re#25
1 3,324 52grs
2 3,305
3 3,295
4 3,333
5 3,332
1 3,353 52.6 grs
2 3,363
3 error
4 3,381
5 3,387
I'm guessing wind gust were from 10-20MPH so groups were wide. But even so Bergers were half the size of Hornadys. Ok so after firing, case necks measured .274 easily fitting a bullet into neck. Base measured .4995 all except one that did stick it measured .500 ? So I guess this means I have to use the body die after every firing ? So guys what do you think ?
Loaded 17 rounds . 7 rounds Berger 105 Hybrid Neck diameter with bullet .2715 Seating depth using Sinclair nut 3.311 to Bullet ogive Base after using Redding body die .4985 Case length 2.160
10 rounds Hornady 105 Amax Seating depth 3.326 to ogive all other numbers the same
At first it was to windy to set up chronograph fired 3 shots,wind died down and I set up chronograph
Load of 52grs of Re#25 I seated bullet .005 deeper that last firing.
1 3,429
2 3,418
3 3,411
4 3,418
Now with turning necks down to .270 or seating bullets .005 deeper or using Redding body die my extraction problem has been 99% eliminated . But a very very slight resistance . Of all 3 things I did which one nearly eliminated this problem ?
Hornady loads 5 rounds of 52 grs of Re#25 and 5 rounds of 52.6grs of Re#25
1 3,324 52grs
2 3,305
3 3,295
4 3,333
5 3,332
1 3,353 52.6 grs
2 3,363
3 error
4 3,381
5 3,387
I'm guessing wind gust were from 10-20MPH so groups were wide. But even so Bergers were half the size of Hornadys. Ok so after firing, case necks measured .274 easily fitting a bullet into neck. Base measured .4995 all except one that did stick it measured .500 ? So I guess this means I have to use the body die after every firing ? So guys what do you think ?
Boyd Allen
Active member
Yes, you should. You have been dealing with high pressure loads trying to get away from having to size the bodies of your cases, and I think that you may now realize that that was not a good plan. Different barrels produce different pressures with the same load. Perhaps that is the missing piece of information in your understanding of why your third barrel in a caliber is acting differently. Also, different reamers may vary in how chambers cut with them need to be sized. Even with the same reamer, the method and care with which a barrel is chambered can produce different chamber dimensions.
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
I know this has been beat all around but you should check the reamer print for trim length. It may be some oddball. Not that im saying this is your problem.
Tim Singleton
Member
High pressure, tight chamber at the base.
Centerfire
Member
Many thanks, Al
Centerfire
Centerfire
243winxb
Member
Thicker Jackets = Higher Pressure
Slow powders do not always expand the neck fully on firing. Seeing if a bullet will drop into a fired case is not a good test, IMO. Bearing surface length and jacket thickness have an effect on pressure. Hornady bullets are softer than Berger? Could be? http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test
Slow powders do not always expand the neck fully on firing. Seeing if a bullet will drop into a fired case is not a good test, IMO. Bearing surface length and jacket thickness have an effect on pressure. Hornady bullets are softer than Berger? Could be? http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test
Last edited:
6x284 VS Denial verdict GUILTY
My rifle is a 30"bbl Rem 700 8" twist . I wanted and expected high velocities right out the gate. Instead my brass was actually ruined by to hot of loads . I made a rookie mistake and ignored case head expansion as a clue that my loads were to hot. I'm starting over . Thanks every one for posting.
My rifle is a 30"bbl Rem 700 8" twist . I wanted and expected high velocities right out the gate. Instead my brass was actually ruined by to hot of loads . I made a rookie mistake and ignored case head expansion as a clue that my loads were to hot. I'm starting over . Thanks every one for posting.