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Thread: Firing pin energy vs accuracy

  1. #31
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    chillpill

    One final thought. First off, frankly, Iíve never actually said youíre wrong, what I have stated as have others, I have seen no factual evidence or results showing me improvement or lots of others using the methodology I utilize which yields comprhensive results over widely differing conditions.
    You donít shoot anymore....OK, point me to the student(s) that have studied at the hand of the master to help educate me. I strive to learn but the mission is to go forward not sideways.
    I donít think thatís unreasonable.

  2. #32
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    Discipline

    Anyone know what discipline Tim shoots. Never see all the results.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Beggs View Post
    Tim, if you really want to learn some priceless information about tuners, open your mind and LISTEN TO MIKE EZELL. He knows what he's talking about.

    On the other hand, if all you want to do is resist and argue, choose someone else to pick on. Mike is a busy man. He doesn't have time to waste on people that just want to argue.

    Contact Richard Brensing in Kansas for state of the art tuner instruction.

    Offered with good intentions FWIW.

    Gene Beggs
    Yep as it relates to the CF world, no argument from me.
    In the rimfire world, as far as it being exactly the same...I have many unanswered questions ?
    This started with commentary about how ignition, among other things, is exactly the same, which is patently incorrect.at the end of the day I donít need to argue, I need to see where the utilization evidence exists. Lets try and remember, nobody is arguing against tuners, simply some methodology.
    By the way, you ever spend any time at all behind an IR sporter??

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred J View Post
    Anyone know what discipline Tim shoots. Never see all the results.
    Nice to see your second carrer as a motivational speaker is coming along Fred.

  5. #35
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    Didn't answer my question. You must be a Liberal. Sorry Wilbur, just couldn't resist.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Yep as it relates to the CF world, no argument from me.
    In the rimfire world, as far as it being exactly the same...I have many unanswered questions ?
    This started with commentary about how ignition, among other things, is exactly the same, which is patently incorrect.at the end of the day I donít need to argue, I need to see where the utilization evidence exists. Lets try and remember, nobody is arguing against tuners, simply some methodology.
    By the way, you ever spend any time at all behind an IR sporter??
    I don't think anyone, but specifically myself, ever said ignition systems were equal. All I see is you stating that what I have found to work, can't work, without ever saying why it won't work or describe what you do and why it works better.

    FWIW, Gene makes tuners and does a lot of testing in his state of the art tunnel. After seeing my posts for a few years and doing just as you, dismissing my findings, he finally decided to test my method in his tunnel. Guess what! He now advocates my method of tuning.

    What I'd like to see from you is some actual contribution to this discussion, since we completely hijacked tis thread...at least bring something to the table. How about you explain why rf rifles tune differently than cf. I'll sit back and watch. Remember my previous post on this...I do agree that they tune differently, just not as much differently as some claim. My position after doing vibration analysis and confirming my findings there, in competition, is that the only difference is that due to ammo speed and lower vibrational frequency, everything is slower with a rf and that measurably translates to a little larger tuner adjustment to accomplish the same thing as with a typical cf br rifle. I can be pretty specific and state that the difference is about double but that there is typically at least one sweet spot in every revolution of my tuner on a typical rf br rifle. Other makes vary a small amount but are still very similar to what I find with mine. I've tested most all of them, including several home made tuners. We've hijacked the thread but if you'd bring something to the table, it could at least make for a decent tuner thread.

    As I said earlier, I do think you have a good head on your shoulders, just not a very open mind.

    So far, I see it bothers you when I say that...that you see yourself as willing to try different things and as someone with lots experience. But, all you have done is state that I'm wrong because I don't have enough experience to be right...and your reasoning is that some top tier shooters do it some other way. IOW, you are just parroting something that you've heard without quantifying anything nor pointing out why I'm wrong and you're right.

    You seem to be saying that I'm right about cf but wrong about rf.

    The ball is in your court Timmy...Bring some heat this time!
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-21-2018 at 07:10 PM.

  7. #37
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    First off donít assume.
    Second off since obviously I shoot tuners, why would you simply assume I Ďm being dismissive, I cannot tell you how much time and ammo weí ve judicially expended to see if constant adjustment yields advantage. Franky, I wish I knew why or why not but in the rimfire world I suspect it may be barrel specific.
    I know how to tune a rimfire to a high degree IMHO and I and respected others simply have not seen yield advantage.
    What am I doing wrong?
    Trust me if youíve got a better path, Iím in.
    Have you done any of this, ever, on a very high grade rimfire barrel, I mean a real consistant rig?
    And again.....any of you guys.....still have not said a damn word on the wonderful world of IR sporters with immovable tuners that would seem to defy a little bit of this.
    I,m not trying to be a PIA here....sincere questions that deserv answers, no?

  8. #38
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    You're Right Tim

    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    Yep as it relates to the CF world, no argument from me.
    In the rimfire world, as far as it being exactly the same...I have many unanswered questions ?
    This started with commentary about how ignition, among other things, is exactly the same, which is patently incorrect.at the end of the day I donít need to argue, I need to see where the utilization evidence exists. Lets try and remember, nobody is arguing against tuners, simply some methodology.
    By the way, you ever spend any time at all behind an IR sporter??

    I should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this. No, I'm not a rimfire shooter. Sorry for butting in.

    I just have such high regard for Mike Ezell that I can't remain silent if I think he needs help. I wish you and Mike could get together and demonstrate how you each use a rimfire tuner. Obviously, you are in the "Set it and leave it" camp and Mike Ezell is very much in the "Take full advantage of the adjustments" camp.

    I hope some good comes of this. I'll now crawl back under my rock, remain silent and listen.

    Gene Beggs

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim View Post
    First off donít assume.
    Second off since obviously I shoot tuners, why would you simply assume I Ďm being dismissive, I cannot tell you how much time and ammo weí ve judicially expended to see if constant adjustment yields advantage. Franky, I wish I knew why or why not but in the rimfire world I suspect it may be barrel specific.
    I know how to tune a rimfire to a high degree IMHO and I and respected others simply have not seen yield advantage.
    What am I doing wrong?
    Trust me if youíve got a better path, Iím in.
    Have you done any of this, ever, on a very high grade rimfire barrel, I mean a real consistant rig?
    And again.....any of you guys.....still have not said a damn word on the wonderful world of IR sporters with immovable tuners that would seem to defy a little bit of this.
    I,m not trying to be a PIA here....sincere questions that deserv answers, no?
    Yes...they do! You're ignoring them, though.
    I'll answer your one question about sporters because I said I would and forgot to. I asked you to please start a new thread but here we are....

    Tuners do two things.
    Just having a mass at the end of the barrel lowers the frequency the barrel vibrates at. This yields a wider tune window.(lower fequency essentially means the barrel vibrates slower) Yes, it stays in tune LONGER and it's easier to find. Hence, a heavier tuner, to a point, is a good thing. RF barrels can typically take more weight before giving accuracy issues than cf barrels due to being less stiff. Yes, this is counter intuitive but it's true. Anyway, yes, having mass at the end of the barrel is of benefit even if you never move it. In the case of rf, it makes it easier to find a "good" lot and keeps it in tune longer but is NOT impervious to tune changes related to temperature. Powder burning is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temperature dependent, so they still go out, so bring a few lots with your sporter.

    The other thing they do is allow you to time where the barrel is, in it's vibrational pattern, with bullet exit. The only way to fix temp related tune changes is to change the load, which is how cf shooters have always done it, or move the tuner, if it's a non-sporter. We could discuss options to that, like changing tension on action screws, but I'll go against the rf grain again and state that a glue in is best when practical.

    There ya go!

    I'll expound a little further on something that I've mentioned already but gets lost in the "noise" of these discussions.
    If you're looking for a tuner or different tuning method that improves upon a gun that is already in perfect tune, you'll be disappointed. Perfectly tuned is well, perfectly tuned. So, looking for your best groups to get smaller is not at all what I'm talking about. But, if you're leaving a little crumb on the table in regard to tune, particularly when changing lots or in temp changes, moving the tuner is all it takes to pick up that crumb. I'm not saying to grab it and twist it some obscure amount, not at all. You have to be methodical about it. It's very typical for there to only be about 8-10 marks(rimfire!) on my tuner between completely in tune to completely out of tune, shooting about as big as it can. So, I strongly advocate moving 1 single mark at a time. Once you've found that 8-10 mark window on your barrel, a 2-4 mark adjustment is very big for any temp change. The only time I've found that you need to move that much is for ammo lot number changes.

    More in depth on that later.
    Last edited by mwezell; 09-21-2018 at 08:19 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene Beggs View Post
    I should have kept my mouth shut and stayed out of this. No, I'm not a rimfire shooter. Sorry for butting in.

    I just have such high regard for Mike Ezell that I can't remain silent if I think he needs help. I wish you and Mike could get together and demonstrate how you each use a rimfire tuner. Obviously, you are in the "Set it and leave it" camp and Mike Ezell is very much in the "Take full advantage of the adjustments" camp.

    I hope some good comes of this. I'll now crawl back under my rock, remain silent and listen.

    Gene Beggs
    Gene, Look, I know who you are and what you represent. You have every right to wade into the swamp with the rest of us.
    Letís for just a moment realise some of us have been screwing with tuners fo 20 odd years and for myself, Iíve done everything short of putting them on my salad.
    Iím a simple guy....hit me in the head and tell me to ďtry it this wayĒ and I damn sure will.
    Iím not really as dumb as you suspect.

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