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Thread: neck or F.L.

  1. #1
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    neck or F.L.

    I know this question has been asked before but I cant remember the answer. I bought a Montana rifle in 6.5 creedmoor. The action is supposed to be trued. free floated. The trigger could be a little lighter but I might take it hunting this fall. Im guessing 3 or 4 lbs. Got a leupold 4.5 to 14 on it. Tried a lot of powders and bullets the best group I ever got was .5 and the worst was probably 1.5 , probably me. Got a hornady f. l. bushing die trying to F.L. resize. Got the semi hard bolt close. My question. Could I gain a straighter case by neck sizing? I don't have a neck sizing die for 6.5 cm. should I buy one? Had the best luck with varget or imr 4064. Bullets? Itll shoot 130s good one time and 140s good the next time. Should I buy a neck sizer? Doug

  2. #2
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    Why not just back the FL die [sans expander] out a few thousands or put a shim under the locking ring and see if that helps. Should accomplish the same thing. Make sure that the cases will chamber properly in your rifle.

  3. #3
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    Neck Size Only WILL allow the rifle to shoot to it's potential but you run the risk of galling lugs over time and you can't shoot fast with brass sized this way. This specifically is why custom dies exist, so that you can get the benefits of both.

    Backing off a factory FL die will not work in most cases altho if you back it off like .200, or so that it only sizes half the neck without squishing the body in it _may_ work (lotta' variables)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
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    Neck Size Only WILL allow the rifle to shoot to it's potential but you run the risk of galling lugs over time and you can't shoot fast with brass sized this way. This specifically is why custom dies exist, so that you can get the benefits of both.

    Backing off a factory FL die will not work in most cases altho if you back it off like .200, or so that it only sizes half the neck without squishing the body in it _may_ work (lotta' variables)
    Neck sizing also helps to extend the life of brass.
    Those often carefully selected, sorted and prepped shells do not stretch nearly as much with each firing if you neck size.

    If you full length size you often will set the head to shoulder back to a slightly less than minimum value.
    The shell then stretches when fired again back to the actual chamber size.

    It has been reduced to minimum headspace length so it would fit ANY rifle chambered for that case.

    It is often required to make sure rifles that have less force to chamber a new round (semi autos and lever guns) can operate.
    Bolt action guns normally have plenty of force available from ye 'ol hand to chamber a new round.

    Many are easily capable of partially crushing a shell into a chamber.

  5. #5
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    I guess Ill keep doin what Im doin. Ive got the die backed off a little got a fairly hard bolt close. Take it back down to the shellholder to load hunting ammo. Didn't know if I could get a little more accuracy by neck sizing. Ill F.L. all my hunting rounds. Thanks, Doug

  6. #6
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    If the rifle shoots best with that powder load you can pretty much FL all of them and not see a difference in accuracy. Another thing, and this may sound ridiculous, try neck sizing some new cases to see if they get "tight" when fired. Cases have a memory of some sort and they don't forget....ever.

    I'll ask this, and no answer necessary, but think it over. Will the rifle shoot well with less powder?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
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    Neck Size Only WILL allow the rifle to shoot to it's potential but you run the risk of galling lugs over time and you can't shoot fast with brass sized this way. This specifically is why custom dies exist, so that you can get the benefits of both.

    Backing off a factory FL die will not work in most cases altho if you back it off like .200, or so that it only sizes half the neck without squishing the body in it _may_ work (lotta' variables)
    You're supposed to use a scosch of lube on the rear side of the lugs to prevent galling. Nothing pisses off a smith more than some rube galling the lugs that he so lovingly lapped. Learned that from the BEST bulletsmith in the country. When neck sizing only, sooner or later I think you will need to FL size to get the cases to chamber.
    Last edited by antelopedundee; 07-30-2018 at 01:08 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur View Post
    If the rifle shoots best with that powder load you can pretty much FL all of them and not see a difference in accuracy. Another thing, and this may sound ridiculous, try neck sizing some new cases to see if they get "tight" when fired. Cases have a memory of some sort and they don't forget....ever.

    I'll ask this, and no answer necessary, but think it over. Will the rifle shoot well with less powder?
    I FL size sans expander ball and let the bullet be the "expander". Obviously be careful when seating flat base bullets lest you squash the neck.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Casner View Post
    I guess Ill keep doin what Im doin. Ive got the die backed off a little got a fairly hard bolt close. Take it back down to the shellholder to load hunting ammo.....Thanks, Doug
    You need this tool from Hornady: https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!q=hk66

    Knock the primer out of a fired case and measure the case head-to-datum. Now you can adjust your die so it just pushes the shoulder back a minimal amount (.001-.002). Unless you have a way to measure this, there's no telling where the shoulder is. If you're sizing using an expander, make sure you adjust the die with the expander in. Many expanders will actually pull the shoulder forward as they come back out of the neck (due to the neck being sized excessively and/or the style of expander).

    This tool is one of the first things any hand loader should buy.

    Good shootin'. -Al
    Last edited by Al Nyhus; 07-30-2018 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    You need this tool from Hornady: https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!q=hk66

    Knock the primer out of a fired case and measure the case head-to-datum. Now you can adjust your die so it just pushes the shoulder back a minimal amount (.001-.002). Unless you have a way to measure this, there's no telling where the shoulder is. If you're sizing using an expander, make sure you adjust the die with the expander in. Many expanders will actually pull the shoulder forward as they come back out of the neck (due to the neck being sized excessively and/or the style of expander).

    This tool is one of the first things any hand loader should buy.

    Good shootin'. -Al
    What about mandrel style expanders if one chooses to use an expander? I'd throw those RCBS ball types in the trash can. One can lube the inside of the case neck too.

  11. #11
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    question

    This may be a dumb question but could too much speed in a 1 in 8 twist make them unstable? They shoot better a gr. or so under max. Wilbers post made me think about it. Doug

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Casner View Post
    This may be a dumb question but could too much speed in a 1 in 8 twist make them unstable? They shoot better a gr. or so under max. Wilbers post made me think about it. Doug
    Is your goal accuracy or velocity? I would pick the load that gives the best groups. A bullet that doesn't know where it's going but gets there quicker is useless. BTW, what do you mean by a straighter case in your OP?

    For hunting loads, I'd think that you'd want to size your cases so that they chamber without a lot of effort. Will the Montana Rifle Co. make you a sizing die from their reamer?

    Otherwise, have Redding or whomever make custom dies from your brass.

    Do the holes in the target paper look like the bullets are keyholing which leads you to ask about stability?

  13. #13
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    doubt it

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Casner View Post
    This may be a dumb question but could too much speed in a 1 in 8 twist make them unstable? They shoot better a gr. or so under max. Wilbers post made me think about it. Doug
    velocity is one way of tuning...the amount of powder in the case...more usually gives higher velocity but it changes barrel harmonics and what you are trying to do is find a load/seating depth that gives you a nice round hole...no vertical. Sometimes more powder will do that, sometimes not. Its just one of the variables you have to play with, within safe pressure range of course.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Casner View Post
    This may be a dumb question but could too much speed in a 1 in 8 twist make them unstable? They shoot better a gr. or so under max. Wilbers post made me think about it. Doug
    Generally no.

    If the bullets are not well made they may not have a perfect uniform weight distribution around the central axis of the bullet.

    In THAT case spinning them faster only further exaggerates their imbalance.
    Even 'production' type bullets rarely have this problem any more.

    And target or BR grade ones are often about as good a bullet as can be made.

    The other problem you can encounter is lightly built (thin jackets) varmint type bullets.
    It is possible to over-speed them and they start to come apart from the forces.

    I have done it a very few ties with a .22-250 AI using a 28 inch barrel.
    The bullet left a faint gray streak in the air and nothing hit the target.
    The grey cloud was very 'bent' and went only for about ~50 yards towards a 100 yard target.

    After the second shot did the same thing I simply set those rounds aside and added a not to my log book.
    Salvaged the powder, bullets, and primed cases.

    'Sierra Blitz' (and not the present BlitzKing) sticks in my mind.
    It might have been a earlier version.
    They did NOT have a polymer tip but a small hollow point.
    Last edited by brickeyee; 07-30-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  15. #15
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    twist

    Their not keyholing round holes in the target. It may be a half inch rifle on a good day, which aint bad for a production rifle. I wondered about the quick twist but they would be keyholing if it was unstable. My swifts and my 6ppc are 1 in 14 I thought that 1 in 8 might be spinning to fast for the speed they were running. The long bullet in the 6.5 takes care of that. Thanks for talking to me guys. Thanks for reminding about the keyhole. Doug

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