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Thread: Newbie with Scope Question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    Rio Rancho, NM
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    Newbie with Scope Question

    Hello, this is my first post, please be merciful

    Recently I took a long range class as part of the club's 1000 yd range requirements. They offer F-Class and I have had a long range interest for awhile. Having just finished my build on a rifle for CMP/NRA Service Rifle, my budget is depleted. So instead of starting out with the best of everything, I am going to try it the other way. I know all about buy it once, cry once. Got it. But, if I want to have something to train with, get my toes in the water, then I am doing to do it on the cheap.

    Purchased a 6.5 Creedmoor as that was the caliber I chose to go with. Now a scope....

    Having spent a lot of time researching the subject, even focusing on F-Class discussion, as soon as I think I have it all figured out, I read another article and get twisted around.

    What it boils down to is MOA vs. Mil, FPP or SPP. In either case, I want AO. First, I was told that other disciplines might go mil, the consensus seemed to be that F-Class was MOA. If you don't bring a lot of inch/cm with you, then it is just what is easiest to use for the 1000 yd target?

    Same with first and second focal plane. The consensus seemed to be FPP for known distance like F-Class and people in PRS and varying distances might want to go SPP. Not to further dilute the topic, but then it is a simple dot reticle or some form of BDC?

    If there have been polls or discussions on this with all the answers, I apparently didn't find them so please help!

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West central NH
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    410
    You could get started with a Weaver or Sightron 36X for a bit over $400 and do OK. If that's too much, then you can go cheaper but you're taking your chances. Chinese scopes are often hit or miss. One option you might look at is the Osprey 10-40x50 scope for sale on the classifieds section of this site for $225, new in the box. It has a 30mm tube and decent rings. They have side parallax adjustment. I have two of them and have never had a complaint. The optics are decent and they seem to hold zero well. They are a rugged scope. They'd still be making them, but the factory burned.

    I'd get an EGW 20 MOA that fits your rifle and mount it up. Set it on 35 or 40 power and leave it there. Figure out which of the stadia lines to use for which yardage and then don't worry about it. You'll have your hands full for a while doping wind and mirage.

    With that done, you can take your time about building your bank account and figuring out what you really want.

    I'd still be shooting F-class but 3 bouts of skin cancer has left me sun-shy. Wear your sun-screen.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    West central NH
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    I see there's also a Leupold 36x out there for $350 and a Sightron 36x for $300. Both good deals.

    What I meant about using the stadia lines is to sight the Osprey in at your closest yardage, probably 200, and then use the stadia lines for hold over. Then you don't get all wrapped around the axle twisting dials and trying to remember where you started. The Leupold and Sightron I mention here won't have those lines so you'll have to twist dials to start with.

    Not only will wind and mirage be challenges, but so will schlepping your equipment around between yardage points. Try to keep things simple with the scope at the start.

  4. #4
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    Jul 2018
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    Rio Rancho, NM
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    Hello sir,

    Are the scopes you are talking about for $300 fixed vs. variable? I can't find the prices you are talking about.

    I am not familiar with the Osprey but the reviews I saw didn't commend it despite your personal experience.

    Initially I thought I wanted a 6-24 and then the 8-32 became more alluring. Even if I only looked at the cheaper 6-24 models, these were the models and prices I found:

    Bushnell X30 $271
    Vortex Crossfire II $299
    Athlon Argus $354 (FPP)
    Sightron SIII $620 (FPP)
    Nikon Monarch 3 $627

    If I step up to 8-32/34

    Mueller Target $236
    Athlon BTR $389 (FPP)
    Konus F30 $460 (FPP)
    Sightron SIII $655 (FPP, another $100 for zero stop)
    Leupold VX-3 $870

    It seems the scopes fall into four groups:
    cheapest scopes, sub $300, lots of concerns or just not that good
    cheap scopes $300-400) like the Athlon that, if you are lucky, will be pretty good. The Crossfire II fits in here too
    mid-price scopes $400-700, this range gets you the Sighttron and seems to be the minimum scope some will "settle" for
    high end which is everything up from there and is what most of the buzz about. Typically low $1000s and skyrocketing up from there.

    I can't seem to find a better $400 deal than the Ahtlon although I would love to spend double and get a Sightron.

    All of this aside, I still can't sort through the opinions of first vs. second focal plane. I talked to the league director at the club and he says most shoot 2nd focal plane, but was that because they are older scopes when FPP was more rare, was it the additional cost, or is SPP actually better for known distances in F-Class. IF, as some say, FPP is preferred, then that makes the Athlon even more attractive as you are getting FPP at that sub-$400 price point.

    BTW, I am an FFL, and can buy from the distributors, so my cost would be a little lower than the street prices I am quoting here, but my cost isn't that much better of a deal than anyone else.

    Thanks so much!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Albany, OR
    Posts
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by Testshoot View Post
    Hello, this is my first post, please be merciful

    Recently I took a long range class as part of the club's 1000 yd range requirements. They offer F-Class and I have had a long range interest for awhile. Having just finished my build on a rifle for CMP/NRA Service Rifle, my budget is depleted. So instead of starting out with the best of everything, I am going to try it the other way. I know all about buy it once, cry once. Got it. But, if I want to have something to train with, get my toes in the water, then I am doing to do it on the cheap.

    Purchased a 6.5 Creedmoor as that was the caliber I chose to go with. Now a scope....

    Having spent a lot of time researching the subject, even focusing on F-Class discussion, as soon as I think I have it all figured out, I read another article and get twisted around.

    What it boils down to is MOA vs. Mil, FPP or SPP. In either case, I want AO. First, I was told that other disciplines might go mil, the consensus seemed to be that F-Class was MOA. If you don't bring a lot of inch/cm with you, then it is just what is easiest to use for the 1000 yd target?

    Same with first and second focal plane. The consensus seemed to be FPP for known distance like F-Class and people in PRS and varying distances might want to go SPP. Not to further dilute the topic, but then it is a simple dot reticle or some form of BDC?

    If there have been polls or discussions on this with all the answers, I apparently didn't find them so please help!

    Thanks!
    I have one scope to recommend to you: Nikon Black FX-1000. I'm (slowly) working on a review of it for my blog. I'm not ready to publish, but I can tell you that it is an outrageous value. At $650 (for the version I'm testing - 4-16x, no reticle illumination) you won't find anything comparable from a major manufacturer for less than 2-3x the price. I keep hunting for the "problem" that would make it so much cheaper, but it doesn't seem to be there. Sorry, I'm gushing. It's a great scope, and until your budget hits $2500+ I'd have nothing better to recommend for long range, especially PRS type shoots.

    GsT

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Rio Rancho, NM
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneT View Post
    I have one scope to recommend to you: Nikon Black FX-1000. I'm (slowly) working on a review of it for my blog. I'm not ready to publish, but I can tell you that it is an outrageous value. At $650 (for the version I'm testing - 4-16x, no reticle illumination) you won't find anything comparable from a major manufacturer for less than 2-3x the price. I keep hunting for the "problem" that would make it so much cheaper, but it doesn't seem to be there. Sorry, I'm gushing. It's a great scope, and until your budget hits $2500+ I'd have nothing better to recommend for long range, especially PRS type shoots.

    GsT
    Hello sir, thanks for chiming in. The Nikon is beyond my budget, I am mainly looking in the $400 area, half the street $800 price on the 6-24X50

    Nikon is my preferred photography equipment but have never had any of their other glass, but I am sure it is fine. It just isn't in the budget. Also, you mention PRS which I think has different equipment needs than F-Class? Mil/SFP vs. MOA/FFP?

    Thanks!

  7. #7
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    Jul 2018
    Location
    Rio Rancho, NM
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    This guy suggests SFP

    Here is an F-Class shooter suggesting SFP and although he doesn't say it is a MOA scope, he is talking MOA.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...s-competition/

  8. #8
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    Jul 2018
    Location
    Rio Rancho, NM
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtmarmot View Post
    I'd get an EGW 20 MOA that fits your rifle and mount it up. Set it on 35 or 40 power and leave it there. Figure out which of the stadia lines to use for which yardage and then don't worry about it. You'll have your hands full for a while doping wind and mirage.
    I forgot to respond to this suggestion. It happens the rifle comes from the factory with the EGW 20MOA scope mount. That was nice of them

    Sunscreen? In New Mexico, you are kidding

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Nelson New Zealand
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    For known distance events you want SFP

    For unknown or variable distance FFP is a benefit

    SFP reticle hash marks only show the full measurement at one power, usually but not always full power

    FFP reticle hash marks always show the same measurement regardless of magnification power.

    SFP cross hairs generally appear thinner at full powder & FFP thinner at low power.

    This makes it easier to aim at a much smaller target dot with SFP than FFP at distance.

    MIL or MOA makes little difference, except MOA is a finer measurement so easier to get "perfectly" zeroed

  10. #10
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    Jul 2018
    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg View Post
    For known distance events you want SFP

    For unknown or variable distance FFP is a benefit

    SFP reticle hash marks only show the full measurement at one power, usually but not always full power

    FFP reticle hash marks always show the same measurement regardless of magnification power.

    SFP cross hairs generally appear thinner at full powder & FFP thinner at low power.

    This makes it easier to aim at a much smaller target dot with SFP than FFP at distance.

    MIL or MOA makes little difference, except MOA is a finer measurement so easier to get "perfectly" zeroed
    Thanks, that was a great synopsis. I think one key on the Mil/MOA thing is what everyone else is doing, i.e. the other shooters and if you have an inch target and everyone is talking MOA, then you probably want to go with the flow. I don't know what other disciplines also are typically MOA.

    Thanks so much!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Nelson New Zealand
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testshoot View Post
    Thanks, that was a great synopsis. I think one key on the Mil/MOA thing is what everyone else is doing, i.e. the other shooters and if you have an inch target and everyone is talking MOA, then you probably want to go with the flow. I don't know what other disciplines also are typically MOA.

    Thanks so much!
    I'm a MOA/Yards Dinosaur

    I'm being kinda being pushed/coerced/suggested by some of my customers to compete in some LR/PRS style shoots here (I'm busy enough with work & BR)

    The problem is for that I will need to convert to metres, MIL & FFP otherwise I won't be able to effectively communicate with my team mates & it will be a mess.

    No point me telling them that the tiny 1/4 visable target is 1126 yards away according to my PLRF10 .....whats that in metres Mate ???? Horses for courses

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Rio Rancho, NM
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    As a followup, since I last wrote I have talk to Athlon's customer service and to their sales manager. The nicest people you could deal with. I was told by both that the 10-40X50 SFP MOA scope was built specific for F-Class shooters. Their initial air shipment of them came in and can be found for full retail ($399) at places like MidwayUSA and their second surface shipment is coming in soon, about a week or two which is a larger quantity and will then be available at many of the distributors we work with.

    ARGOS BTR 10-40X56 MOA

    There aren't any reviews yet for the scope but I am hoping and expecting good things, especially at that price point.

    Athlon has scopes up to $1800 so they aren't all just low end, but are all bang-for-the-buck.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    122
    Testshoot,
    Iíve shot F-class for 19 years. My recommendation is if you are going to shoot F-Class with the scope you are going to buy then get SFP plane reticle with MOA. I shoot a 15-55x scope and normally shoot at 45-55x. Use the lines on the target to hold off for windage. Avoid using your knobs for windage unless you are holding out of the black. Actually I donít mind holding anywhere on the target, but I have a bit of experience.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    1
    Late to the party but I just joined this forum.

    I started shooting "Precision Rifle" disciplines last October so I'm a newbie as well. Not really an F Class competitor but I'm practicing some of the disciplines as well as shooting Bench Rest. Just built my first gun on a beginner/newbie budget nopt wanting to break the bank to get rounds down range and start learning/shooting. I started with a Savage 10 FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor and added "stuff" slowly. I started with a Vortex Crossfire II 6-25X50 scope that I got for $250 (new/price match) and it has been a pretty darn good scope. I run it at 18X most of the time and have shot out to 600 yards.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'd recommend SFP scopes and try and find scopes that track well and have great mechanics before spending lots of money on really good glass. Clarity is nice but expensive. If I had it to do over again I might be tempted by Athlon but I have no reservations about recommending the Vortex Crossfire. I bought mine with MOA reticle and have been shooting consistent .7 MOA out to 600 yards.

    VooDoo

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