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Thread: Does barrel straightness effect accuracy.

  1. #31
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    Thanks, and to think I got my English schooling in a small town in northern MN; must have had some effect!

  2. #32
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    IDK how much staightness effects accuracy but it does effect the way I chamber them. The really crooked ones get chambered with the Gritters method and the straight one's get the old school BR method, both methods produce barrels that shoot to their potential. Potential is what's discovered shooting it.

  3. #33
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    pablo
    How do you determine what method to try first when not knowing the straightness of the said barrel? I would think, you would have to automatically assume the barrel isnt going to be straight? I always use the gritters method. Ive tried to rap my mind around why one would indicate at a point 20 plus inches away from the actual work. I just dont see it. some say the guns recoil better when the muzzle is in front of the chamber, but i haven't been able to feel a few thou misalignment in recoil myself, so i cant understand that either. I think the Gordy idea works so well because none of these barrels are straight. Some are better than other but none straight. Not to start another debate. LOL Lee

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeetlee View Post
    pablo
    How do you determine what method to try first when not knowing the straightness of the said barrel? I would think, you would have to automatically assume the barrel isnt going to be straight? I always use the gritters method. Ive tried to rap my mind around why one would indicate at a point 20 plus inches away from the actual work. I just dont see it. some say the guns recoil better when the muzzle is in front of the chamber, but i haven't been able to feel a few thou misalignment in recoil myself, so i cant understand that either. I think the Gordy idea works so well because none of these barrels are straight. Some are better than other but none straight. Not to start another debate. LOL Lee
    I'll give you a reason. When it's chambered with the barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the projected throat of the barrel and you change barrels to another barrel chambered indicated in the same way, more than likely point of impact from barrel to barrel to barrel will be within a few inches from one barrel to the next. When you start moving the muzzle end around to indicate in two points at the breech end of the barrel, there's no telling where the bullet is going to hit on target when you change from one barrel to another. Is this a problem? Not necessarily. But, match shooters do change barrels quite often when going from 100 to 200 yards when what they shot at 100 didn't work. I'd rather have a barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the throat, than one indicated by moving the muzzle end around. And yes, I have shot multiple barrels chambered both ways. I just don't see it makes a difference in how the barrels actually shoot which way is used to indicate the barrel in, but I do see it does make a difference in where that barrel's point of impact on target from one barrel to the next. That's my take on it and as in just about anything involved in chambering barrels, opinions vary. And that's all they are opinions. Very hard to prove by facts.

  5. #35
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    Mike, I agree

    with your reasoning. I also chamber indicating the throat and crown. Some of the guys I build for change bbl's fairly often and want a bbl that impacts fairly close to the one they just removed.

    Richard

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bryant View Post
    I'll give you a reason. When it's chambered with the barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the projected throat of the barrel and you change barrels to another barrel chambered indicated in the same way, more than likely point of impact from barrel to barrel to barrel will be within a few inches from one barrel to the next. When you start moving the muzzle end around to indicate in two points at the breech end of the barrel, there's no telling where the bullet is going to hit on target when you change from one barrel to another. Is this a problem? Not necessarily. But, match shooters do change barrels quite often when going from 100 to 200 yards when what they shot at 100 didn't work. I'd rather have a barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the throat, than one indicated by moving the muzzle end around. And yes, I have shot multiple barrels chambered both ways. I just don't see it makes a difference in how the barrels actually shoot which way is used to indicate the barrel in, but I do see it does make a difference in where that barrel's point of impact on target from one barrel to the next. That's my take on it and as in just about anything involved in chambering barrels, opinions vary. And that's all they are opinions. Very hard to prove by facts.

    Great explanation Mike. I am an Fclass guy never thought of bringing an extra barrel. Maybe that's what I'm doing wrong!! I just started doing my own. Gordy way. I will start keeping track if clocking the barrel the same might lead to close POI from one to the other.

  7. #37
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    AS Skeetlee says ( I always use the gritters method.) But then I also indicate the muzzle end (Crown) the same way indicating the last two inches of the muzzle in using the Grizzly rod then cut the crown square to the bore.
    The new barrel when done this way Most often is less the 2 inches of point of impact.
    Chet

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeetlee View Post
    pablo
    How do you determine what method to try first when not knowing the straightness of the said barrel? I would think, you would have to automatically assume the barrel isnt going to be straight? I always use the gritters method. Ive tried to rap my mind around why one would indicate at a point 20 plus inches away from the actual work. I just dont see it. some say the guns recoil better when the muzzle is in front of the chamber, but i haven't been able to feel a few thou misalignment in recoil myself, so i cant understand that either. I think the Gordy idea works so well because none of these barrels are straight. Some are better than other but none straight. Not to start another debate. LOL Lee
    When I chamber I mount the barrel in the headstock between two spiders, pick out a Deltronic pin that fits the bore at the muzzle snug and one at the breech snug, then dial in on the pin at the muzzle and the breech. After adjusting the runout down to a thou or two I stop, pull out pin in the breech end and based on the pin size in the breech end I pick a bushing. After installing the bushing on the Grizzly rod I make sure it is snug in the bore and that it will push in the bore, from the breech end, four inches or so. I then take off the screw that retains the bushing on the rod and push it up in the bore to the throat area, pull the rod out and leave the bushing in the bore. I then indicate off of the id of the bushing with an Interapid long indicator and adjust down to about 2 tenths or less and chase it with the muzzle to get it down to less than a thou. I then push the bushing out with a cleaning rod and reinstall it on the grizzly rod and secure it with the screw. I then indicate the bore in front of the throat, if it will go in for an inch or so and not indicate out more than a thou or so I leave it alone and chamber it. If the inch in front of the throat heads toward the south forty I finish with the Gritters method and move on, I also mark the barrel so I know it isn't likely to shoot close like the straight ones will. No big deal here except to say that I've seen some high end barrels that would indicate out 4 thousanths or so in the inch in front of the throat and those barrels, in my opinion, demand the Gritters method. I've seen many of those shoot very well so I dunno how important being straight is except I would say the straighter they are the more I like it. LOL

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo View Post
    When I chamber I mount the barrel in the headstock between two spiders, pick out a Deltronic pin that fits the bore at the muzzle snug and one at the breech snug, then dial in on the pin at the muzzle and the breech. After adjusting the runout down to a thou or two I stop, pull out pin in the breech end and based on the pin size in the breech end I pick a bushing. After installing the bushing on the Grizzly rod I make sure it is snug in the bore and that it will push in the bore, from the breech end, four inches or so. I then take off the screw that retains the bushing on the rod and push it up in the bore to the throat area, pull the rod out and leave the bushing in the bore. I then indicate off of the id of the bushing with an Interapid long indicator and adjust down to about 2 tenths or less and chase it with the muzzle to get it down to less than a thou. I then push the bushing out with a cleaning rod and reinstall it on the grizzly rod and secure it with the screw. I then indicate the bore in front of the throat, if it will go in for an inch or so and not indicate out more than a thou or so I leave it alone and chamber it. If the inch in front of the throat heads toward the south forty I finish with the Gritters method and move on, I also mark the barrel so I know it isn't likely to shoot close like the straight ones will. No big deal here except to say that I've seen some high end barrels that would indicate out 4 thousanths or so in the inch in front of the throat and those barrels, in my opinion, demand the Gritters method. I've seen many of those shoot very well so I dunno how important being straight is except I would say the straighter they are the more I like it. LOL
    Very good post Paul!

  10. #40
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    It just goes to show

    you how many different methods of chambering work well. Some guys swear by the steady, some with a chuck and wire, some with a spider.
    What's really the best? I guess whatever gives you the results you want.

    Richard

  11. #41
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    Richard, the rail I shot last weekend was chambered exactly like I described, it was so straight way up in the bore it was surprising. I could run the Grizzly rod 4 inches past the throat at 90 degree intervals and it wouldn't hardly wiggle the Interapid test indicator. The muzzle had about a half thou of runout. So I chambered it and you guys saw it shoot. That was my second ten shot rail match. I like straight barrels!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by pablo View Post
    ..... I like straight barrels!
    While it certainly doesn't hurt to have a straight barrel many winning shooters have proven curved barrels can shoot well too when properly chambered.



    .

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bryant View Post
    I'll give you a reason. When it's chambered with the barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the projected throat of the barrel and you change barrels to another barrel chambered indicated in the same way, more than likely point of impact from barrel to barrel to barrel will be within a few inches from one barrel to the next. When you start moving the muzzle end around to indicate in two points at the breech end of the barrel, there's no telling where the bullet is going to hit on target when you change from one barrel to another. Is this a problem? Not necessarily. But, match shooters do change barrels quite often when going from 100 to 200 yards when what they shot at 100 didn't work. I'd rather have a barrel indicated at the muzzle and at the throat, than one indicated by moving the muzzle end around. And yes, I have shot multiple barrels chambered both ways. I just don't see it makes a difference in how the barrels actually shoot which way is used to indicate the barrel in, but I do see it does make a difference in where that barrel's point of impact on target from one barrel to the next. That's my take on it and as in just about anything involved in chambering barrels, opinions vary. And that's all they are opinions. Very hard to prove by facts.

    Good explanation Mike. I think it is more important than what many shooters think to control the release point in relation to the tenon, so the whole length of the barrel is perpendicular to the face of the action. I also have evidence that is is very important to have the first few inches in front of the chamber to be concentric with the the chamber/bore. Usually this isn’t much of a problem with barrel blanks that come from the “custom” barrel makers these days, although it can be if one must cut off an appreciable amount from the rear of the barrel. Therefore, even when chambering a blank through the headstock, I think it’s beneficial to turn a journal on the rear of the barrel blank that is concentric to the bore - between centers, as one does when chambering using a steady rest.

    Greg Walley
    Abraxas LLC

  14. #44
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    Paul, as I said

    earlier, I indicate the throat-crown for my data points. But what I do is check ahead of the throat by the length of the base to ogive of the bullet. If for some reason there is an issue I'll move up the bbl to another spot.
    I can do that because the first thing I do is cut the chamber. I don't cut the tennon or threads or anything until the chamber is fully done. I have had great results doing it that way.
    I have had people tell me the chamber will grow when the tennon is cut. I haven't seen that according to cerrosafe casting before and after. I don't do castings anymore because it's a PITA. But I did on the first bbl's because I thought the chamber would be bigger.
    I just like the flexability of putting the chamber where I want it (within reason)

    Richard

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    earlier, I indicate the throat-crown for my data points. But what I do is check ahead of the throat by the length of the base to ogive of the bullet. If for some reason there is an issue I'll move up the bbl to another spot.
    I can do that because the first thing I do is cut the chamber. I don't cut the tennon or threads or anything until the chamber is fully done. I have had great results doing it that way.
    I have had people tell me the chamber will grow when the tennon is cut. I haven't seen that according to cerrosafe casting before and after. I don't do castings anymore because it's a PITA. But I did on the first bbl's because I thought the chamber would be bigger.
    I just like the flexability of putting the chamber where I want it (within reason)

    Richard
    Richard, I rough out the tenon within about .010 of finish diameter and length and then establish the best chamber I can in the barrel in alignment with two predetermined spots, that being the area where the throats will form, and the muzzle.

    All subsequent machining operations are then machined true with this chamber.

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