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Thread: Score Shooters Showdown

  1. #16
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    S.s.s.

    Just for the record Jim I like the idea of what you're trying to do, however UBR leadership cannot make it encumbent on our shooters to use a .30 cal just to play the game, hopefully this can be understood. I think our shooters can compete with anyone has we have demonstrated time and again. Much success in your endeavors Danny.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herohank View Post
    Just for the record Jim I like the idea of what you're trying to do, however UBR leadership cannot make it encumbent on our shooters to use a .30 cal just to play the game, hopefully this can be understood. I think our shooters can compete with anyone has we have demonstrated time and again. Much success in your endeavors Danny.
    I personally do not see where a 30 is at a disadvantage in UBR. A well tuned 30 will Agg just as well as a well tuned 6PPC. So it's up to the Shooter.

    I have said it before, at any given Benchrest Match, 80 percent of the Rifles are at about a .280+ aging capability. That's not going to get you much, whether you are shooting Group or Score.
    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 01-12-2018 at 01:19 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    I personally do not see where a 30 is at a disadvantage in UBR. A well tuned 30 will Agg just as well as a well tuned 6PPC. So it's up to the Shooter.

    I have aid it before, at any given Benchrest Match, 80 percent of the Rifles are at about a .280+ aging capability. That's not going to get you much, whether you are shooting Group or Score.
    Jackie,
    I think you misunderstand what Danny said. To compete on an IBS/NBRSA target UBR shooters would be compelled to shoot a 30 to be competitive. The overwhelming majority of UBR shooters are now using some form of 6mm and .224, (6PPC, 6 BR, 6 Beggs, 6 BRA, 220 Beggs). The UBR target has been proven ( by measurements) to be a tougher target than the IBS/NBRSA target, but giving up the difference between a .243 & .308 is a bridge too far. Using a caliber neutral target we would compete with anyone. I wish Jim luck with his project and hope he can make it work.

    Rick

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    I personally do not see where a 30 is at a disadvantage in UBR. A well tuned 30 will Agg just as well as a well tuned 6PPC. So it's up to the Shooter.

    I have aid it before, at any given Benchrest Match, 80 percent of the Rifles are at about a .280+ aging capability. That's not going to get you much, whether you are shooting Group or Score.
    Jackie's first sentence cannot be over-stated: without equal precision, there can be no advantage.

    Then, at 200 Yd., the meager (radial, or, shot-to-shot) advantage literally disappears with wind: a measly one MPH constant velocity and [perpendicular] vector drags the bullets, in common use, something over 0.4", or, when comparing a 6mm to a thirty cal,TEN times the perceived advantage . . . perception does become reality. It's really all about tuning and shooting. Does anybody know someone who can dope a one MPH velocity difference, let alone, a fraction thereof?

    I'll quit - I don't want to get this discussion too far off the very good topic. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 01-12-2018 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcline View Post
    I'm working on putting together a score shooting match where the IBS and NBRSA will select members from each organization to represent them at this shoot. The organization will determine who gets selected from their own members to compete on the teams , but I'm thinking it would be best to allow anyone that wants to shoot in this to participate against the BEST from each organization. It is still very early in the planning stages and will most likely not happen until 2019. The format from what most people are saying they want is 1 yardage per day per gun( 6 power 100-6 power 200 then 100 VFS and 200 VFS). We will work on a cash option 100% payback as well as individual, team, 2 gun and overall organization awards. I just putting this out there to see what kind of interest this might create and some ideas on what you think might work best.
    . Great idea. Let me know if and how I can help.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herohank View Post
    Just for the record Jim I like the idea of what you're trying to do, however UBR leadership cannot make it encumbent on our shooters to use a .30 cal just to play the game, hopefully this can be understood. I think our shooters can compete with anyone has we have demonstrated time and again. Much success in your endeavors Danny.
    I agree entirely but I have no problem shooting my 30.

  7. #22
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    [QUOTE=R.G. Robinett;804361]Jackie's first sentence cannot be over-stated: without equal precision, there can be no advantage.

    Then, at 200 Yd., the meager (radial, or, shot-to-shot) advantage literally disappears with wind: a measly one MPH constant velocity and [perpendicular] vector drags the bullets, in common use, something over 0.4", or, when comparing a 6mm to a thirty cal,TEN times the perceived advantage . . . perception does become reality. It's really all about tuning and shooting. Does anybody know someone who can dope a one MPH velocity difference, let alone, a fraction thereof?

    I'll quit - I don't want to get this discussion too far off the very good topic. Keep 'em ON the X! RG[/QUOTE

    R.G., You are right nobody can see the 1mph. change, only a hummer can help there........ Jim

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    Jackie's first sentence cannot be over-stated: without equal precision, there can be no advantage.

    Then, at 200 Yd., the meager (radial, or, shot-to-shot) advantage literally disappears with wind: a measly one MPH constant velocity and [perpendicular] vector drags the bullets, in common use, something over 0.4", or, when comparing a 6mm to a thirty cal,TEN times the perceived advantage . . . perception does become reality. It's really all about tuning and shooting. Does anybody know someone who can dope a one MPH velocity difference, let alone, a fraction thereof?

    I'll quit - I don't want to get this discussion too far off the very good topic. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    I must be misunderstanding this. Are you really saying there is only a "perceived" advantage to a .308 vs a .243 bullet on an IBS score target? If so, whatever you are smoking, please send me some. If I misunderstand your position, please correct me.

    Rick

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    I must be misunderstanding this. Are you really saying there is only a "perceived" advantage to a .308 vs a .243 bullet on an IBS score target? If so, whatever you are smoking, please send me some. If I misunderstand your position, please correct me.

    Rick
    Rick, at 100 Yd., presuming equal precision, there is a slight, but non readable, scoring advantage: it amounts to 0.0325", or, the radial difference - we don't get to use both edges of the bullet. At 100 yd. the wind-drift component is about 0.060, or, 1/16th of an inch . . . roughly 1/2 of the X-dot. It amounts to a savvy shooter having more hold-off hedge, but that goes back to doping and strategy.

    Then, at two hundred yards, each 1MPH of perpendicular wind drags our bullets (whether 6mm, or, .30 cal) about 0.40" (80% of a scoring ring), so, who can take advantage of (DOPE) less than 1/10 that amount? I'm saying, that at Grand Aggregate events, the caliber/diameter component is, "lost in the noise", and merely perceptual. The shooter with a tuned rifle, who is doping and executing
    the best wins.

    At our NBRSA and IBS registered events, here in fly-over land, Grand Agg. (100/200) tournaments are usually won/lost @ 200 Yards, and at the 200 yd. stage. Over all the seasons, the 6mm toting minority have held their own, winning their fair share - shooters win, not cartridges, or, calibers. Some of our habitual win/place/show shooters a 6mm fanatics. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    Rick, at 100 Yd., presuming equal precision, there is a slight, but non readable, scoring advantage: it amounts to 0.0325", or, the radial difference - we don't get to use both edges of the bullet. At 100 yd. the wind-drift component is about 0.060, or, 1/16th of an inch . . . roughly 1/2 of the X-dot. It amounts to a savvy shooter having more hold-off hedge, but that goes back to doping and strategy.

    Then, at two hundred yards, each 1MPH of perpendicular wind drags our bullets (whether 6mm, or, .30 cal) about 0.40" (80% of a scoring ring), so, who can take advantage of (DOPE) less than 1/10 that amount? I'm saying, that at Grand Aggregate events, the caliber/diameter component is, "lost in the noise", and merely perceptual. The shooter with a tuned rifle, who is doping and executing
    the best wins.

    At our NBRSA and IBS registered events, here in fly-over land, Grand Agg. (100/200) tournaments are usually won/lost @ 200 Yards, and at the 200 yd. stage. Over all the seasons, the 6mm toting minority have held their own, winning their fair share - shooters win, not cartridges, or, calibers. Some of our habitual win/place/show shooters a 6mm fanatics. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    While I sincerely appreciate your explanation, I will vehemently disagree with you. Also, it is clear that the overwhelming majority of score shooters do as well. I'm sure you can read equipment lists as well as anybody and doing so you will see that there are virtually no 6mm shooters in these events. Further, having scored as many targets as anybody over the past five years I can testify that the winning score is frequently in the thousands. To say that the difference of .65 gets lost in the noise, to me, is ridiculous and you should know better. I completely agree that the 30BR is equal to the 6PPC in grouping ability, but when shooters with equal equipment and ability compete together in score shooting (IBS/NBRSA target), one shooting a 6PPC and the other a 30BR the edge will go to the 30BR in nearly every case. In fact it will be over 90% of the time. It's pretty easy to look at the results and see what I'm saying. If someone wants to give me .065 on every bull I will bet $$ on every match and I won't go home a loser.

    Rick
    Last edited by Greyfox; 01-14-2018 at 09:01 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    While I sincerely appreciate your explanation, I will vehemently disagree with you. Also, it is clear that the overwhelming majority of score shooters do as well. I'm sure you can read equipment lists as well as anybody and doing so you will see that there are virtually no 6mm shooters in these events. Further, having scored as many targets as anybody over the past five years I can testify that the winning score is frequently in the thousands. To say that the difference of .65 gets lost in the noise, to me, is ridiculous and you should know better. I completely agree that the 30BR is equal to the 6PPC in grouping ability, but when shooters with equal equipment and ability compete together in score shooting (IBS/NBRSA target), one shooting a 6PPC and the other a 30BR the edge will go to the 30BR in nearly every case. In fact it will be over 90% of the time. It's pretty easy to look at the results and see what I'm saying. If someone wants to give me .65 on every bull I will bet $$ on every match and I won't go home a loser.

    Rick

    I have to agree with you Rick. Having experience with both targets, like you and I have, there is no doubt about it to me. IOW, you really need to shoot both to fully appreciate the value of that bigger/smaller dot. It is real and the UBR target makes a 6 or 22 very competitive in score shooting while making the needed level of precision
    equal between calibers.

    The difference in the view that I held is that I have a 30 that I feel like is my best gun. Everyone should be able to shoot their best stuff without being handicapped. The results show, after several years of shooting UBR, with many regulars converting from a 30 to a 6 or 22, that the majority of UBR shooters feel like a 6mm is best when the target system offers no advantage to making the bigger hole of a 30.

    While I love the idea of all three major score shooting sanctioning bodies coming together for this kind of shoot, the advantage of shooting a 30 is too great to call this a level playing field for all.

    I'd probably shoot it, because I am a 30 shooter, but I don't know that I would otherwise.

    I do agree with Randy, that the difference is much less at 200, but it's still there.

    At this level, the game must be fair for all. This is part of why UBR exists and is growing.

  12. #27
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    The difference between IBS/NBRSA scoring and UBR is that they are different - the intent of the OP was/is to have a sort of, "SUPER SHOOT" for score - already somewhat complicated by having two classes (Hunter/6x/10Lb., & VfS), which the way the IBS Nationals are [usually] conducted (TWO DAY event!), has lead to a major decline in Hunter/6x participation.

    Faced with the choice of either shooting two guns, and TWO full rotations a day, most people opt for the easier VfS, as there is less equipment to move about, not to mention the easier aiming and handling of the 13.5 # rifles. I've experienced the two guns thing several times now, and will not do it again - I, and I believe most others, shoot for enjoyment, not a workout.

    I am very opinionated, that the National Championships should be a one gun, one yardage per day affair. THE problem is akin to a parallel discussion on another thread - getting enough volunteers to operate a four, or more, day event, as as is the norm at the NBRSA score Championships. From my perspective, a properly conducted score event, featuring both formats (IBS/NBRSA & UBR), would need to be, at least, a six day event.

    That said, I will again state, that, based upon personal experience, I have never felt handicapped, in any way, based upon caliber - I have either shot well, or, "stunk the place up", and I have won/placed/shown at the NBRSA National Championship level, opting to shoot with, "stuff that'll never work", against the mass of thirty caliber rivals. I have nothing against UBR, I simply believe, that regardless of format/target/discipline, winners win and losers whine . . .or, in other words, regardless of discipline, the dedicated will excel, and dominate.

    Back to the OP, and, my intial primary concern: if attendance is limited, how will we motivate potential sponsors? I do believe this a worthy cause - we need to discuss and identify how to make it work. Fore example: should it be limited to VfS? ? ? Keep 'em ON the X! RG

    P.S. Since I've been deprived of emoticons, please do not misinterpret my attempts @ facetious humor.
    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 01-14-2018 at 02:27 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    If someone wants to give me .065 on every bull I will bet $$ on every match and I won't go home a loser. Rick
    Time to inject some basic Score Target math: .308 minus .243 = .0325 -Al

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Time to inject some basic Score Target math: .308 minus .243 = .0325 -Al
    Hmmm. I knew they were teaching newfangled math in school today but, damn!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    The difference between IBS/NBRSA scoring and UBR is that they are different - the intent of the OP was/is to have a sort of, "SUPER SHOOT" for score - already somewhat complicated by having two classes (Hunter/6x/10Lb., & VfS), which the way the IBS Nationals are [usually] conducted (TWO DAY event!), has lead to a major decline in Hunter/6x participation.

    Faced with the choice of either shooting two guns, and TWO full rotations a day, most people opt for the easier VfS, as there is less equipment to move about, not to mention the easier aiming and handling of the 13.5 # rifles. I've experienced the two guns thing several times now, and will not do it again - I, and I believe most others, shoot for enjoyment, not a workout.

    I am very opinionated, that the National Championships should be a one gun, one yardage per day affair. THE problem is akin to a parallel discussion on another thread - getting enough volunteers to operate a four, or more, day event, as as is the norm at the NBRSA score Championships. From my perspective, a properly conducted score event, featuring both formats (IBS/NBRSA & UBR), would need to be, at least, a six day event.

    That said, I will again state, that, based upon personal experience, I have never felt handicapped, in any way, based upon caliber - I have either shot well, or, "stunk the place up", and I have won/placed/shown at the NBRSA National Championship level, opting to shoot with, "stuff that'll never work", against the mass of thirty caliber rivals. I have nothing against UBR, I simply believe, that regardless of format/target/discipline, winners win and losers whine . . .or, in other words, regardless of discipline, the dedicated will excel, and dominate.

    Back to the OP, and, my intial primary concern: if attendance is limited, how will we motivate potential sponsors? I do believe this a worthy cause - we need to discuss and identify how to make it work. Fore example: should it be limited to VfS? ? ? Keep 'em ON the X! RG

    P.S. Since I've been deprived of emoticons, please do not misinterpret my attempts @ facetious humor.
    Randy, nobodys whining. It's math. Have you shot both? I hope you will. It has proven to be very equal. I still feel like I can be competitive shooting a 30 but the results are statistically significant by now. Most of the winning is being done with a 6mm. If your logic was correct, that too much is being taken away from a 30, then a 22 should dominate.

    Perhaps I'm looking at it backwards and a 30 should dominate. Either way, if it weren't VERY equal, either a 30 or a 22 should be doing most of the winning.

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