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Thread: Score Shooters Showdown

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    Time to inject some basic Score Target math: .308 minus .243 = .0325 -Al
    Good point Al and of course, you are correct. It has to do with the radius rather than the diameter. That being said, I'm very surprised at the disingenuousness of the replies. I think it is generally accepted in the benchrest community that the 6PPC is the most accurate round on the planet. I've seen that opinion voiced on this board more than once and never challenged. If the theories being put forth on this thread are truly believed, why is it that virtually every VFS competitor in both IBS and NBRSA shoots some type of 30 cal, usually the 30BR? If they really believed what they are saying then why don't they choose to shoot "the most accurate round on the planet"? I think the answer is easy. The competitor shooting the bullet that makes the biggest hole has the advantage. I will still say, since my math has been corrected, that if you give me a .0325 advantage on every bull, I will beat you more often than not.

    I will repeat, I support what Jim has in mind and there is a way to make it happen without a six day shoot.

    Rick

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Good point Al and of course, you are correct. It has to do with the radius rather than the diameter....I will still say, since my math has been corrected, that if ...
    Rick, I think your .065 math is correct, since the .308 has a .0325 advantage on both sides of an IBS target.
    Last edited by Hunter; 01-14-2018 at 05:07 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
    Rick, I think your .065 math is correct, since the .308 has a .0325 advantage on both sides of an IBS target.
    My math skills, as you can see, are pretty weak. It's been a very long time since high school geometry. But since it is best edge scoring, I'm thinking Al may be correct It doesn't matter where the other side ends up. We only care about that part of the bullet closest to the chigger. Either way, it seems very clear to me that the bigger bullet has a distinct advantage over the smaller. If it weren't that way most shooters would choose the smaller, lighter recoiling case that also happens to be "the most accurate cartridge on the planet". I will also add that in UBR SSOY competition -Custom Class, only 2 of the top 10 shot a 30 BR. They placed 6th & 9th. All the rest either shot a 6PPC or a 220 Beggs.
    My point, again, is that if you give shooters a choice without the penalty, the majority will choose a 6 or a 22.

    Rick

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    Randy, nobodys whining. It's math. Have you shot both? I hope you will. It has proven to be very equal. I still feel like I can be competitive shooting a 30 but the results are statistically significant by now. Most of the winning is being done with a 6mm. If your logic was correct, that too much is being taken away from a 30, then a 22 should dominate.

    Perhaps I'm looking at it backwards and a 30 should dominate. Either way, if it weren't VERY equal, either a 30 or a 22 should be doing most of the winning.
    Mike - you're not looking at it backwards, just misinterpreting what I say. ;-) I'm not saying anything is being, "taken away" from the the thirty - just that's it's two different games. Especially in the IBS/NBRSA Grand Aggregate format, I don't, "give away", anything shooting my .224s, 6mms, or even my 20 BR.

    Going back to 1987, my sole gripe with the NBRSA score target (200Yd. version) is that it is not incremental enough: the current target, having the same (approx. 1/2 MOA) ten-ring is ample, but demanding. However, to my liking, not "punishing" (incremental) enough to deliberately capitalize on that mere 0.032" radial advantage. Even the .25" spacing was roughly 7 times the [so called] scoring advantage - again, WAY beyond dope-able! ;-) On the "old" 200Yd. target, which featured 1/4" ring spacing, there could have been more merit to the scoring advantage argument.

    I offer the contemporary X-ring (1/8" dot) as evidence: the average 200 Yd. X-count is well under 1/4th of possible . . . in other words, mostly luck. Back when Bill Creasy kept IBS season score statistics (all registered tournaments), the average WINNING X-cout never exceeded 9. ;-) This luck transfers directly to scoring - nobody can dope for the difference in bullet diameter - miss the combination of vector and velocity, by the equivalent of a 1.25 MPH perpendicular (constant form mzzle to target) wind, and you just nabbed a nine - 20BR, .30 BR, anything, or, in-between. ;-)

    The problem is, compared to that "original" target, you can grossly compound that miss and still get a nine, which is just as good as an almost ten! ;-) Nothing is perfect. I'm not arguing for going back - already lost that battle many times - I just shoot what everyone else voted for. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 01-14-2018 at 06:14 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    The difference between IBS/NBRSA scoring and UBR is that they are different - the intent of the OP was/is to have a sort of, "SUPER SHOOT" for score - already somewhat complicated by having two classes (Hunter/6x/10Lb., & VfS), which the way the IBS Nationals are [usually] conducted (TWO DAY event!), has lead to a major decline in Hunter/6x participation.

    Faced with the choice of either shooting two guns, and TWO full rotations a day, most people opt for the easier VfS, as there is less equipment to move about, not to mention the easier aiming and handling of the 13.5 # rifles. I've experienced the two guns thing several times now, and will not do it again - I, and I believe most others, shoot for enjoyment, not a workout.

    I am very opinionated, that the National Championships should be a one gun, one yardage per day affair. THE problem is akin to a parallel discussion on another thread - getting enough volunteers to operate a four, or more, day event, as as is the norm at the NBRSA score Championships. From my perspective, a properly conducted score event, featuring both formats (IBS/NBRSA & UBR), would need to be, at least, a six day event.

    That said, I will again state, that, based upon personal experience, I have never felt handicapped, in any way, based upon caliber - I have either shot well, or, "stunk the place up", and I have won/placed/shown at the NBRSA National Championship level, opting to shoot with, "stuff that'll never work", against the mass of thirty caliber rivals. I have nothing against UBR, I simply believe, that regardless of format/target/discipline, winners win and losers whine . . .or, in other words, regardless of discipline, the dedicated will excel, and dominate.

    Back to the OP, and, my intial primary concern: if attendance is limited, how will we motivate potential sponsors? I do believe this a worthy cause - we need to discuss and identify how to make it work. Fore example: should it be limited to VfS? ? ? Keep 'em ON the X! RG

    P.S. Since I've been deprived of emoticons, please do not misinterpret my attempts @ facetious humor.
    Randy< it will be presented as a 4 day event as requested by the majority of two gun shooters.

    Guys WITH NO DISRESPECT to any discipline this event will use the IBS/NBRSA target it is not up for debate. If you think a 6mm in the correct hands can't compete with a 30 you are badly mistaken. There are STILL numerous records held by the 6MM and I can assure you numerous people have tried to beat them countless times. I personally have seen a 6mm dominate a score event several times and I also have scored many IBS targets.

    Question for thought---- If the target is mathematically "caliber neutral" and all calibers are equal, Where does the recoil advantage of a 6mm over a 30 come in? Isn't that coming back into the "ADVANTAGE" area?
    Last edited by jcline; 01-14-2018 at 06:34 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcline View Post
    Randy< it will be presented as a 4 day event as requested by the majority of two gun shooters.

    Guys WITH NO DISRESPECT to any discipline this event will use the IBS/NBRSA target it is not up for debate. If you think a 6mm in the correct hands can't compete with a 30 you are badly mistaken. There are STILL numerous records held by the 6MM and I can assure you numerous people have tried to beat them countless times. I personally have seen a 6mm dominate a score event several times and I also have scored many IBS targets.

    Question for thought---- If the target is mathematically "caliber neutral" and all calibers are equal, Where does the recoil advantage of a 6mm over a 30 come in? Isn't that coming back into the "ADVANTAGE" area?
    Jim,
    For the record I don't think I have seen anything on this thread or the other that has suggested you use anything other than the IBS/NBRSA target. I certainly haven't. All I have attempted is to have you guys admit that a bigger bullet has an advantage in best edge scoring. To this point no wants to be candid and admit that. Also, it wasn't me or any other UBR competitor AFAIK that suggested we compete in this event. It was you that made the overture. And FWIW there is a considerable difference in being competitive and having an advantage.

    I sincerely hope your match is successful and I wish you the best in your efforts to promote it. I think it will be good for the benchrest community.

    Rick

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Jim,
    For the record I don't think I have seen anything on this thread or the other that has suggested you use anything other than the IBS/NBRSA target. I certainly haven't. All I have attempted is to have you guys admit that a bigger bullet has an advantage in best edge scoring. To this point no wants to be candid and admit that. Also, it wasn't me or any other UBR competitor AFAIK that suggested we compete in this event. It was you that made the overture. And FWIW there is a considerable difference in being competitive and having an advantage.

    I sincerely hope your match is successful and I wish you the best in your efforts to promote it. I think it will be good for the benchrest community.

    Rick
    Rick: post # three (3) in this thread, by Mike Ezell; "I like it Jim, but a "Triple Crown" would be even better. UBR on the last day...no x's, just points. That's UBR and that would shake things up, especially at 200. There is the caliber neutral aspect but I'm sure most if not all the IBS and NBRSA shooters will be shooting a 30 anyway.

    I think it's a great idea, either way. "

    Please note that I included - did not clip - that last, "qualifier" sentence in Mike's quote. The implication WAS there! ;-)

    We agree that such an event will be good for the sport - let's see what develops. As you can see, I am not alone in the opinion that the bullet diameter is a highly over-rated attribute. Again, I want to make it clear, I do not believe any discipline is superior to any other - merely that they differ - and, that, on a give day/event, the best shooter wins. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    Last edited by R.G. Robinett; 01-14-2018 at 09:15 PM.

  8. #38
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    Back on track.....

    The idea of a Score Super Shoot, for lack of a better term, is a great idea!

    Several of us tried to generate interest in just such a concept several years back, to no avail.

    Hats off to all involved in trying to make this happen.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Nyhus View Post
    The idea of a Score Super Shoot, for lack of a better term, is a great idea!

    Several of us tried to generate interest in just such a concept several years back, to no avail.

    Hats off to all involved in trying to make this happen.
    Al, that is EXACTLY what I want to accomplish. I want anyone that would like to shoot any gun that fits in the rules to be able to shoot. I don't care if they shoot competition of any kind normally or not nor do I care if it a group or long range competitor. It will have to follow a set of rules that IBS follows for the gun guidelines. still early in the planning but would love to see as many people that want to shoot be able to shoot. THERE WILL BE A CASH OPTION for everyone that wants to participate. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. JC

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    Rick: post # three (3) in this thread, by Mike Ezell; "I like it Jim, but a "Triple Crown" would be even better. UBR on the last day...no x's, just points. That's UBR and that would shake things up, especially at 200. There is the caliber neutral aspect but I'm sure most if not all the IBS and NBRSA shooters will be shooting a 30 anyway.

    I think it's a great idea, either way. "

    Please note that I included - did not clip - that last, "qualifier" sentence in Mike's quote. The implication WAS there! ;-)

    We agree that such an event will be good for the sport - let's see what develops. As you can see, I am not alone in the opinion that the bullet diameter is a highly over-rated attribute. Again, I want to make it clear, I do not believe any discipline is superior to any other - merely that they differ - and, that, on a give day, the best shooter wins. Keep 'em ON the X! RGRG
    Randy,
    I see your point. It appears I overlooked what Mike had to say. At any rate, I've had this conversation with Jim before and I never entertained the idea that there would be anything but the IBS/NBRSA target. I'm pretty sure there won't be any UBR involvement, but I've been wrong before.

    Rick

  11. #41
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    Hey, Wilbur - ya see: that Nyhus fellow has all that fancy stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcline View Post
    Al, that is EXACTLY what I want to accomplish. I want anyone that would like to shoot any gun that fits in the rules to be able to shoot. I don't care if they shoot competition of any kind normally or not nor do I care if it a group or long range competitor. It will have to follow a set of rules that IBS follows for the gun guidelines. still early in the planning but would love to see as many people that want to shoot be able to shoot. THERE WILL BE A CASH OPTION for everyone that wants to participate. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. JC
    Jim, let me know what I can do to assist - you know where to find me. Keep 'em ON the X! RG

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.G. Robinett View Post
    Rick: post # three (3) in this thread, by Mike Ezell; "I like it Jim, but a "Triple Crown" would be even better. UBR on the last day...no x's, just points. That's UBR and that would shake things up, especially at 200. There is the caliber neutral aspect but I'm sure most if not all the IBS and NBRSA shooters will be shooting a 30 anyway.

    I think it's a great idea, either way. "

    Please note that I included - did not clip - that last, "qualifier" sentence in Mike's quote. The implication WAS there! ;-)

    We agree that such an event will be good for the sport - let's see what develops. As you can see, I am not alone in the opinion that the bullet diameter is a highly over-rated attribute. Again, I want to make it clear, I do not believe any discipline is superior to any other - merely that they differ - and, that, on a give day/event, the best shooter wins. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
    Yes Randy, I said that in post three but you can't cherry pick my posts to suit your case. Please go read my post 26, where I explained what I was thinking and why I was wrong.

    You have to read them all sir.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Good point Al and of course, you are correct. It has to do with the radius rather than the diameter. That being said, I'm very surprised at the disingenuousness of the replies. I think it is generally accepted in the benchrest community that the 6PPC is the most accurate round on the planet. I've seen that opinion voiced on this board more than once and never challenged. If the theories being put forth on this thread are truly believed, why is it that virtually every VFS competitor in both IBS and NBRSA shoots some type of 30 cal, usually the 30BR? If they really believed what they are saying then why don't they choose to shoot "the most accurate round on the planet"? I think the answer is easy. The competitor shooting the bullet that makes the biggest hole has the advantage. I will still say, since my math has been corrected, that if you give me a .0325 advantage on every bull, I will beat you more often than not.

    I will repeat, I support what Jim has in mind and there is a way to make it happen without a six day shoot.

    Rick
    Rick, as long as you can hit either side of the dot and it be scored as a hit, your math was right the first time.

    Now, carry on. Good discussion and I still like the idea of this match, it's just different.

  14. #44
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    Wasn't the keystone classic back in the 90's supposed to be like this ? The score super shoot with no sanctioning body would likely bring more shooters same as group super shoot .

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    Yes Randy, I said that in post three but you can't cherry pick my posts to suit your case. Please go read my post 26, where I explained what I was thinking and why I was wrong.

    You have to read them all sir.
    Mike, I did read them all - I was simply pointing out to Rick, that, contrary to his, "For the record I don't think I have seen anything on this thread or the other that has suggested you use anything other than the IBS/NBRSA target.", statement the door had been opened. ;-) RG

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