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Thread: Induction Annealed

  1. #1
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    Induction Annealed

    Attached is an induction annealed case. I just need to set up an Arduino board to control the time and voltage setting. This is 36 volts for 4 seconds. I also need to make a water cooled inductor.

    Michael
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mturner View Post
    Attached is an induction annealed case. I just need to set up an Arduino board to control the time and voltage setting. This is 36 volts for 4 seconds. I also need to make a water cooled inductor.

    Michael
    What does your actual induction heating element look like?

  3. #3
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    Amp

    I bought an AMP unit. All the testing and programs were done. IMO that alone was worth the cost.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    What does your actual induction heating element look like?
    My first test coil is 12GA solid copper wire. It is about .75" diameter by 1.25" tall. Tubing is better because you can water cooling the coil.

    Andy

    Glad to hear you are happy with the AMP. The thing is this, a lot of cases are not programmed in, because of turned necks. Any time you change the neck thickness, you are no longer calibrated for that particular brass. I will quickly be able to adjust the machine for my personal preference, and save about $900. I don't have time to mess with sending cases to AMP, so they can tell me what I need. I can promise you they would not have the program I need in their database.

    Michael

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mturner View Post
    My first test coil is 12GA solid copper wire. It is about .75" diameter by 1.25" tall. Tubing is better because you can water cooling the coil.

    Andy

    Glad to hear you are happy with the AMP. The thing is this, a lot of cases are not programmed in, because of turned necks. Any time you change the neck thickness, you are no longer calibrated for that particular brass. I will quickly be able to adjust the machine for my personal preference, and save about $900. I don't have time to mess with sending cases to AMP, so they can tell me what I need. I can promise you they would not have the program I need in their database.

    Michael
    This is not an attempt to change your mind, but The AMP people provide data to adjust for different neck thickness. Plus they use lab equipment to test the metallurgical properties of the brass in cases to arrive at the settings for annealing the brass on their equipment. Just curious as to what laboratory equipment you have that will allow you to analyze the properties of your brass so you can make the necessary adjustments to your device. Or is it going to be trial and error? I have an AMP and their list of tested brass is so long that there is none that i use that does not appear on their list. Of course you could be using some esoteric brass that few people have heard about. I'm guessing you're one of those people who prefer to roll their own. Well, it's a free country and to each his own. If I can buy a turnkey system that does what I need and the price is acceptable, I'll go that route. I have a lathe and a mill and a Tig welder and can make a lot of things. But if somebody's already done it, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I like AMP.

  6. #6
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    I have to agree

    Quote Originally Posted by adamsgt View Post
    This is not an attempt to change your mind, but The AMP people provide data to adjust for different neck thickness. Plus they use lab equipment to test the metallurgical properties of the brass in cases to arrive at the settings for annealing the brass on their equipment. Just curious as to what laboratory equipment you have that will allow you to analyze the properties of your brass so you can make the necessary adjustments to your device. Or is it going to be trial and error? I have an AMP and their list of tested brass is so long that there is none that i use that does not appear on their list. Of course you could be using some esoteric brass that few people have heard about. I'm guessing you're one of those people who prefer to roll their own. Well, it's a free country and to each his own. If I can buy a turnkey system that does what I need and the price is acceptable, I'll go that route. I have a lathe and a mill and a Tig welder and can make a lot of things. But if somebody's already done it, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. I like AMP.
    Doing the testing was going to be my next question. Even if I bought the necessary equipment to do the metallurgical testing and then learned how to use it, it would still take a lot more time and money than purchasing the AMP unit. A friend of mine on the other side of our country is a metallurgist and told me that not only is the correct temperature required for slight alterations in the alloy ie one brand to another but the soak time at that temperature also an issue. So I wish Michael the best with his project.

  7. #7
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    I own an AMP, and as adamsgt said - they've got a setting for everything. OTOH, I'd be hard pressed to prove via accuracy or case life that it was any better than my old method of using a propane torch and tempilaq to figure out how long to hold the neck in the flame. So, if I were building an induction annealer, I would probably use tempilaq to see that I'd 'just' reached the heat I wanted and after that it would become a setting: X Volts at Y Hz for Z sec and should be very repeatable batch to batch. Maybe not as good as the AMP, but maybe every bit as good in a practical (accuracy, case life) sense - I'd love to see some concrete evidence either way.

    Michael - you didn't describe much of your setup, but as you gear this up for "production" annealing, you'll want to watch the duty cycle your transformer can withstand and you'll probably need to shield your Arduino. You could poke around here: http://www.fluxeon.com/opensource.html to see if there are any other considerations you should look into.

    Good luck!

    GsT

  8. #8
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    The best way to explain "why" I'm doing this is simple. I have the capability. I enjoy these kind of projects. I don't simply play "follow the leader". I have been an inventor and product developer since I was a teenager. It runs in the family. This is not necessarily about a new product to market. I just finished a cruise control for my motorcycle, and I did it because I wanted a cruise control, and didn't see anything I really wanted to purchase. If I did want to make the new annealer a product, then AMP would have a major competitor. I say this for two reasons. I only build quality, and our company's customer service is the best in the world. When we all go out shooting benchrest, we do it because we enjoy it. My brother and I do things like this for the same reason other people do. Sometimes we would rather do this than watch TV.

    I'll use Jackie Schmidt for an example, and hope he doesn't mind. Jackie can afford an AMP annealer, and he may buy one, or he may build his own. He can also afford for someone else to build his benchrest rifles, but he trust his own workmanship and attention to detail even more than he could trust someone else's. He could just watch TV, and pay someone else, but he probably also enjoys it.

    Now if anyone can prove that hardness testing of brass is extremely critical to bullet placement on target, I'm listening, but if you can, you have made every other brand of annealer obsolete. I have been a tool and die maker for over 30 years. Hardness testing is a simple process, and while I have done it thousands of times, I see no need for me to incorporate it into my personal annealer. If I ever get the brass too soft, I can reduce time, or voltage. I believe going to a desired seating pressure is the best. Other than that, we are looking for consistency from case to case. If all the brass is the same hardness, same neck thickness, same neck tension, then all is good. AMP has no proof that a certain hardness is best for group size. If anyone disagrees with this statement, then AMP will need to prove the best neck tension. They can't do that for simple reasons. They have no idea what my barrel or yours likes best in the way of seating depth, or neck tension. If there was one simple answer, we would all use the same neck tension and seating depth, but we all know this depends on other variables like barrel, bullet, powder, caliber, etc.

    Other than consistency, we look for improved case life. I have never seen a problem with the case life on any of my benchrest rifles, but with that said, many PPC shooters have complained about loosing neck tension. This is caused by too much spring-back of the case neck. This is not a case life issue, unless you threw good brass away. This is cured by annealing. I have seen many split necks with high neck clearance chambers.


    Gene,

    The points you made concerning duty cycle of the transformer, and shielding are good points. Typically we handle the duty cycle issue by using transformers and support electronics that are considered overkill for the task at hand. For the shielding we typically use metal enclosures to protect sensitive devices, and shielded cable. Obviously you know something about engineering.

    I can post more details as I make further progress. This project is not anywhere near a priority. I will work on it in my spare time, if there is such a thing as "spare" time.

    Michael
    Last edited by mturner; 08-13-2017 at 01:25 PM.

  9. #9
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    Michael - my hat is off to you for building this. It's just like your BR action....you could've bought a Panda or Stiller, but instead made your own. In doing so, you controlled every aspect of the receiver and got some features not available off the shelf.

    The next time we talk, I want to hear more about this induction annealer. Or if you have time, perhaps you could post additional details here. I'm sure others would be interested in knowing more about it.

    -Lee
    www.singleactions.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Martin View Post
    Michael - my hat is off to you for building this. It's just like your BR action....you could've bought a Panda or Stiller, but instead made your own. In doing so, you controlled every aspect of the receiver and got some features not available off the shelf.

    The next time we talk, I want to hear more about this induction annealer. Or if you have time, perhaps you could post additional details here. I'm sure others would be interested in knowing more about it.

    -Lee
    www.singleactions.com
    I would certainly be interested. I'd also be interested in your action build if you documented it somewhere. Lee - I have followed your thread on singleactions since shortly after its inception. Thank you for doing such a thorough job (I know that takes a lot of extra work). - my full-custom action is somewhere in the wings...

    GsT

  11. #11
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    Proof

    Proof of anything working or not working in BR is for the most part unobtainable. Some things can be proven because using something like IMR 4831 simply wouldn't be a suitable powder for a cartridge like a 6mm PPC. The reason obtaining proof is so difficult is because there are simply too many components and subsystems within subsystems to isolate whether this variable influenced accuracy or not. I think there is plenty of room for the snake oil salesmen in our sport. The reason I anneal is to try to extend the life of the brass. Will it work ? Only time will tell but the metallurgists are saying it will.

  12. #12
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    Andy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Cross View Post
    Proof of anything working or not working in BR is for the most part unobtainable. Some things can be proven because using something like IMR 4831 simply wouldn't be a suitable powder for a cartridge like a 6mm PPC. The reason obtaining proof is so difficult is because there are simply too many components and subsystems within subsystems to isolate whether this variable influenced accuracy or not. I think there is plenty of room for the snake oil salesmen in our sport. The reason I anneal is to try to extend the life of the brass. Will it work ? Only time will tell but the metallurgists are saying it will.
    often times I think you are right on. However, I have been playing with a 30x46 for score shooting over the last 3 weeks. My reasoning was that Benchmark would be a good place to start. It's very small kernels that meter well, of reasonable burn rate for the case size. For the life of me I could not get the gun to group using it. I tried BIBs 7 ogive and 10 ogive 118's and BIB 112 gr 7s. I varied the powder charge till things looked better. Then varied seating depth. No matter what I tried I could not get a good group with it. Last week I tried H4198 and about 5 thou jam, which seemed the best with BM. The thing shot a tiny knot on the target with BIB 118 7 ogive bullets. So, one can isolate a variable on occasion, in this case powder. --Greg

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  14. #14
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    Back when I was shooting CF rifles a lot,

    I use to believe I could make any bullets shoot in the rifles I was using. I have since learned that I was WRONG. And beyond that, not only did I discover that a particular barrel liked a particular bullet but it also preferred a particular powder along with that bullet. Unfortunately, the bullet maker no longer makes them . So, to all of those folks I disagreed with on that subject, I have seen the error of my pig headed beliefs.

    On the subject of induction annealing, there where several good Youtube films made of a lad who used an automotive mechanic's annealer with good success. The films are likely still there. In my estimation, the induction annealer is the slicing of the case annealing loaf. Absolutely the berries. I looked into, a little bit, trying to find a source to have someone make some, specifically for cartridge cases but like so many "good ideas" I have had over the years, my ADD did not permit me to get anything done. I figured if I could find someone who goes to China to facilitate things like this, it could be a slam dunk. Then I wondered if a lad could sell enough of them for everyone's trouble and investment. I admire lads like Mike who CAN DO so many things and has the ambition to follow through. Good on ya Mike

    Pete
    Pete

  15. #15
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    Been there

    Quote Originally Posted by glp View Post
    often times I think you are right on. However, I have been playing with a 30x46 for score shooting over the last 3 weeks. My reasoning was that Benchmark would be a good place to start. It's very small kernels that meter well, of reasonable burn rate for the case size. For the life of me I could not get the gun to group using it. I tried BIBs 7 ogive and 10 ogive 118's and BIB 112 gr 7s. I varied the powder charge till things looked better. Then varied seating depth. No matter what I tried I could not get a good group with it. Last week I tried H4198 and about 5 thou jam, which seemed the best with BM. The thing shot a tiny knot on the target with BIB 118 7 ogive bullets. So, one can isolate a variable on occasion, in this case powder. --Greg
    Yeah Greg I've been there. But on one occasion when I swore blind that the new batch of powder or bullets were not playing the game I handed the rifle to a shooter who can usually beat me any time they feel like it. He shot a couple of groups under the same conditions using the same load that were half the size of mine. His comment was doesn't seem to bad to me. Had you done the same thing I wonder if something similar may have resulted.

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