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Thread: Tension/Compression barrels, water-cooled, etc

  1. #16
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    I've built a few for people. Tension and compression. Joel's gun was outstanding until that barrel was shot out. He never could duplicate the performance . He tried several barrels with multiple chambers if I remember correctly. Charles Bailey was the first to get one to perform. I think he duplicated the performance with follow up barrels. He relied on bullets. I never shot my compression barrel at distance. It was a lighter 300 Win Mag barrel. It shot everything the same. I should screw it back on and play with it. Maybe I will at the new shop as I'll have a range out back. Look at the match results. Not just the winners. The top 25% and ask the question, Will all the expensive and trouble needed be worth it? Assuming it's accurate to start with. I wouldn't build one for myself if someone was paying for my time. I have a hunk of 5" OD X .500" S/S tubing I'd give someone so I don't have to move it.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Tooley View Post
    I've built a few for people. Tension and compression. Joel's gun was outstanding until that barrel was shot out. He never could duplicate the performance . He tried several barrels with multiple chambers if I remember correctly. Charles Bailey was the first to get one to perform. I think he duplicated the performance with follow up barrels. He relied on bullets. I never shot my compression barrel at distance. It was a lighter 300 Win Mag barrel. It shot everything the same. I should screw it back on and play with it. Maybe I will at the new shop as I'll have a range out back. Look at the match results. Not just the winners. The top 25% and ask the question, Will all the expensive and trouble needed be worth it? Assuming it's accurate to start with. I wouldn't build one for myself if someone was paying for my time. I have a hunk of 5" OD X .500" S/S tubing I'd give someone so I don't have to move it.
    Dave, your experience mirrors what many of us run in to when working with extreme accuracy Rifles. That being, just how good is the barrel to begin with.

    I used to put my Rail Gun Barrels in a 2 1/4 inch OD by 1 5/8 ID tubes, installed with pourable Deacon. Some would shoot fantastic, others just average. Truth is, the fantastic Barrels would have shot well out of the tube, and the average barrels would have stayed average.

    I was doing a lot of work for what amounted to insignificant gains in relation to actual shooting in Matches. In short, it just wasn't worth it.

    Great barrels tend to be great untill we finally shoot them to death, and mediocre barrels tend to be mediocre untill we finally decide to stop throwing good bullets down range with them, and relegating them to the dust bin of future barrel drops.

  3. #18
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    I don't know if I am hijacking or not but scold me if I am. I read an article on the Sunnen HTE1600u honing machine that has been developed for barrel work. Frank Green has one he has been using it for a while now and has another on order. Is this going to change the barrel business? Will this make barrels better or will it make them cheaper or both? What do you think? I don't know who said this it may have been Frank Green. But it was said that "I can teach a guy to lap barrels and he will have to lap a hundred before I will know if he will ever be any good at it." Does this machine eliminate the hand lap process?

  4. #19
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    tension Compression barrels water cooled etc

    Have you talked to Frank about his barrel process? He laps the reamed hole first. Then rifles and finish laps the barrels.
    This saves on lapping at the end from our discussion the finish lap is just a touch, not like some others.
    The sunnen hones look like a good deal on a process. I have looked at their web site .

  5. #20
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    Other barrel makers honed their barrels before Bartlein. Ken Johnson is the first one I knew about back in the mid 90's. Bartlein worked with Sunnen to build the first prototype machine. Honing brings the hole up to size and then makes it straighter, rounder and a better finish than when it was reamed. They still need lapping after rifling but not with the same degree of difficulty. I'm sure honing adds expense to barrels. It's an extra step, man hours, and a machine in the process. It adds uniformity to the manufacturing process across the work force which translates into consistency.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ebb View Post
    I don't know if I am hijacking or not but scold me if I am. I read an article on the Sunnen HTE1600u honing machine that has been developed for barrel work. Frank Green has one he has been using it for a while now and has another on order. Is this going to change the barrel business? Will this make barrels better or will it make them cheaper or both? What do you think? I don't know who said this it may have been Frank Green. But it was said that "I can teach a guy to lap barrels and he will have to lap a hundred before I will know if he will ever be any good at it." Does this machine eliminate the hand lap process?
    Just a guess, but I would say it removes the human factor, mainly the inconsistencies that can be a result of an individule craftsman performing an operation over and over again that is predicated on his ability.

    Is the Machine better? In the World of mass production, where you have a limited amount of material and labor cost that can be dedicated to a particulat product, yes. When you look at the amount of work involved in getting a high precision rifle barrel ready to ship, it's amazing they are able to sell them, and make a profit, at the price we pay.

    Anything that the manufacturer can do to produce a product that is equal in all respects at a lower cost is a win win. That is how the real world of manufacturing works.

    Look at the videos of modern assembly lines, especially in the automobile industry. Not a whole lot of people involved.

    Now, before everybody jumps on me for suggesting that there is something wrong with a skilled person doing the lapping, that is not what I am suggesting. In the end, the skilled craftsman will produce the same results. But then, he has to do it again, and again, and again. He gets tired. He can be thinking of something else. He can, (god forbid), say.......That's good enough".

    What if you get the barrel he was working on Friday Afternoon when he's thinking about getting to his kid's football game that eavning. Whether we like it or not, that can be a reality.

    The Machine does not have kids. The Machine will give verifiable results.

    The only question is, are these results equal to the what the skilled craftsman can produce.

    We will see.

  7. #22
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    Do yall think we'll ever see Wire EDM applied to precision rifle barrels? Does it have the potential to be as good as cut? I think they already do some pistol barrels this way correct me if wrong..

  8. #23
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    I think the hones have limited but positive affects on cut rifled barrels, but buttoned barrels can be a different story. Too smooth a finish actually great INCREASES to force needed to pull(or push) a button through a given size hole due to more surface contact and less lube held by the smoother finish. It makes a HUGE difference. Another instance of things NOT being as they would seem, on the surface. Pun intended., but a serious point that is counterintuitive until you think a bit more about the subject.

  9. #24
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    I doubt you will see wire EDM for barrel bores. I can't see any advantage to it. The Sunnen hones are used to do a light hone after drilling and reaming the bore. You are not limited to "grit" size in honing.
    Jackie, I could see your point on the lap after rifling, but not after the drill and ream.

  10. #25
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    How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbhotrod View Post
    How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..

    From my information it ain't to BR or competition standards at this time. Kinda in the quality of hammer forged.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbhotrod View Post
    How about ECM? I know a Austrian company, Ritter & Stark is using electrochemical rifling process for their barrels. S&W also for the pistol barrels AFAIK..


    Nowlin has been using ECM on .45 barrels.

    I have a couple in 1911s.

    They have a complete mirror finish even in a borescope.

    Sharp edges and completely polished.

    It IS going to be a tough fight in a longer smaller rifle barrel though.

    Using a smaller electrode tip on a longer insulating tube to deliver electrolyte is going to be a challenge.

    It is also not exactly a high speed process.

    Probbaly slower than even EDM and that is not known for speed.

    One of the main advantages is precision and surface finish though.
    Last edited by brickeyee; 05-25-2017 at 02:36 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by brickeyee View Post
    Nowlin has been using ECM on .45 barrels.

    I have a couple in 12911s.

    They have a complete mirror finish even in a borescope.

    Sharp edges and completley polished.

    It IS going to be a tough fight in a longer smaller rifle barrel though.

    Using a smaller electrode tip on a longer insulating tube to deliver electrolyte is going to be a challenge.

    It is also not exactly a high speed process.

    Probbaly slower than even EDM and that is not known for speed.

    One of the main advantages is precision and surface finish though.
    Id a reckoned there was a reason we dont hardly see noone using EDM or ECM for rifle barrels, thanks for your input Mr Lambert and everyone else. So with that said, do you think theres much seperating single point cut rifling and ECM when it comes to high end pistol barrels?

    Kinda strange that Ive seen quite a few proponents of CHF claim that hammer forging has the potential to be the most accurate and consistent of the processes yet in practice that dont really play out. Even though Ive heard they were shooters, BR hall of famers aint exactly clamoring for old Sako PPC barrels to throw on their rigs. The cut rifled barrels are far and away the most popular nowadays(excluding rimfire), maybe with the exception of a pristine original Mcmillan tube. Certainly its because with a glance at most equipment lists, the cut barrels are winning nearly everything.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbhotrod View Post
    Id a reckoned there was a reason we dont hardly see noone using EDM or ECM for rifle barrels, thanks for your input Mr Lambert and everyone else. So with that said, do you think theres much seperating single point cut rifling and ECM when it comes to high end pistol barrels?

    Kinda strange that Ive seen quite a few proponents of CHF claim that hammer forging has the potential to be the most accurate and consistent of the processes yet in practice that dont really play out. Even though Ive heard they were shooters, BR hall of famers aint exactly clamoring for old Sako PPC barrels to throw on their rigs. The cut rifled barrels are far and away the most popular nowadays(excluding rimfire), maybe with the exception of a pristine original Mcmillan tube. Certainly its because with a glance at most equipment lists, the cut barrels are winning nearly everything.

    JB, who is the CHF?
    Technology is moving along in a very quick way, but can't see how a person could cut the grooves in a barrel, maybe it the rifling was straight and not in a twist.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Lambert View Post
    JB, who is the CHF?
    Technology is moving along in a very quick way, but can't see how a person could cut the grooves in a barrel, maybe it the rifling was straight and not in a twist.
    Daniels has been hammer forging barrels for the military. He does the chamber and the bore w/rifling all at once. It looks more like a swaging process than a hammer forge, but that's one of the future processes that will surely be perfected over time.

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