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Thread: Houston Warehouse

  1. #1
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    Houston Warehouse

    Surfing the "net" last night and found that the old Houston Warehouse article had been posted to the net at the following link. It has always been an interesting read and I bet some of those who lurk here today have never read the article, so here is the link. Could be we need to get Wilbur to make it a sticky? How many of you use sandpaper to finish the neck turning job on cases?

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

  2. #2
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    Don't get too excited. In the real world of competitive shooting, much of the information is impractical.

    I'm not saying it is useless. There is a difference.

  3. #3
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    I'll copy it here and stick it for a few days..."unstuck" you'll be able to search for it. There's not much practical information there, as Jackie said, but it seems to be an article folks like to read. I'll make it a separate post so folks don't have to read my interpretation....

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlecooner View Post
    Surfing the "net" last night and found that the old Houston Warehouse article had been posted to the net at the following link. It has always been an interesting read and I bet some of those who lurk here today have never read the article, so here is the link. Could be we need to get Wilbur to make it a sticky? How many of you use sandpaper to finish the neck turning job on cases?

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
    Finishing case necks with "sandpaper".. Reading Tony's book, he does. Don't use "sandpaper" per se, use 300-600 grit "wet or dry". Much better.

    Does this sand finish help? IMO, no for just the looks, yes if you are sanding to make all the case necks in a set the same diameter..measure with a bullet seated.

    Always measure your case necks with bullets seated as opposed to simply measuring neck wall thickness. Neither ball mikes or tube mikes will give you a really accurate, all around the neck, measurement.

    .

  5. #5
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    Lightbulb Interesting.......

    .......in that I try to prove, at least to myself, that a given neck turning set-up is actually turning "to within a tenth".

    Some years ago I put together the system below. Yes.....I do check every case.

    BTW.......thanks to "Mr. Innocent".

    Kevin
    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6
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    I make a habit of checking various Case Necks from shooters any chance I get.

    My conclusion is that there are quite a few shooters who do not know how to use Micrometers properly. Their neck turning skills leave something to be desired as well. The proof is in the cases they produce.

    When turning necks, you have to remove as many variables as possible from the process. Unfortunately, the biggest variable of all is difficult to remove, that being, the person doing the turning.

    In my opinion, all that about finishing necks with sandpaper belies the fact that there was a flaw in the original neck turning procedure.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    In my opinion, all that about finishing necks with sandpaper belies the fact that there was a flaw in the original neck turning procedure.
    In another post you mention blowing out the shoulder before neck turning. Seems to me that expanding or sizing operations on the neck can introduce distortion in the neck/shoulder junction.I can't think of any current tools for working the neck that capture and secure the case body up to the neck/shoulder junction before doing it's operation on the neck. Many years ago I remember buying an RCBS inside neck reaming die to use on .308 cases. The case was a tight fit in the die before the reamer was used. Would a similar die be useful for the ppc world. Not specifically talking about inside neck reaming a .220 Russian case, but securing the case before running an expander through the neck or neck sizing. Or does this idea fall into the category of "why measure with a micrometer if you're going to mark with a grease pencil and cut with an ax?"

  8. #8
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    YEARS ago, I decided that using a ream die before turning might have some advantage, because the inside of the neck would be cut so that it would be better aligned with the body of the case, and then when the neck was finished by outside turning, the neck would be better aligned with the case body. Cases are formed with reference to their outside dimensions with the result that any inconsistencies in their necks' thicknesses displace the CL of neck IDs away from the CL of the outside of the case. Normal turning indexes off of the inside of the neck, and if that is off center then the turned neck will be as well. My thought was that you cannot straighten something that is springy by only bending it to the point were you want it to be, you have to go past that point, which is impossible within the confines of a barrel's chamber.

    RCBS supplied the ream die, which ended up having to be replaced because the machine that they used to size the inside of the die's neck did not have a way to hold the ID of the die in alignment while the operation was done. (The neck was honed with the operator holding the die in his hand.) The result was that cases came out of the die noticeably less straight than they went in. Then there was the matter of the finish that the reamer left on the inside of the necks. It was not smooth, markedly increasing the force required to seat bullets. Fortunately this went away after a couple of firings. The final nail in the coffin was that I could see no advantage by examining targets. The rifle was a tight neck .222 with Hart barrel. It could be reasonably argued that the rifle, and or my skill level were such that any slight improvement would have been obscured by larger issues. In any case, I decided that this was a solution for a nonexistent problem. The cases that I made conventionally, expanding and turning, measured and worked just fine. On the other hand, if you want to pursue this, knock yourself out.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Allen View Post
    YEARS ago, I decided that using a ream die before turning might have some advantage, because the inside of the neck would be cut so that it would be better aligned with the body of the case, and then when the neck was finished by outside turning, the neck would be better aligned with the case body. Cases are formed with reference to their outside dimensions with the result that any inconsistencies in their necks' thicknesses displace the CL of neck IDs away from the CL of the outside of the case. Normal turning indexes off of the inside of the neck, and if that is off center then the turned neck will be as well. My thought was that you cannot straighten something that is springy by only bending it to the point were you want it to be, you have to go past that point, which is impossible within the confines of a barrel's chamber.

    RCBS supplied the ream die, which ended up having to be replaced because the machine that they used to size the inside of the die's neck did not have a way to hold the ID of the die in alignment while the operation was done. (The neck was honed with the operator holding the die in his hand.) The result was that cases came out of the die noticeably less straight than they went in. Then there was the matter of the finish that the reamer left on the inside of the necks. It was not smooth, markedly increasing the force required to seat bullets. Fortunately this went away after a couple of firings. The final nail in the coffin was that I could see no advantage by examining targets. The rifle was a tight neck .222 with Hart barrel. It could be reasonably argued that the rifle, and or my skill level were such that any slight improvement would have been obscured by larger issues. In any case, I decided that this was a solution for a nonexistent problem. The cases that I made conventionally, expanding and turning, measured and worked just fine. On the other hand, if you want to pursue this, knock yourself out.
    Boyd, as I stated, I have no intention of inside neck reaming. I was just thinking that when we expand a case using the typical expanding mandrel, the body of the case is not supported or held in line with anything. With the method that Jackie uses, the neck/shoulder junction is blown forward under intense pressure that should be evenly exerted inside the case. Subsequent expanding should then be less disruptive to the case. I was just "blue skying" it by wondering if holding the case in a die when the expander is rammed down the neck might help. So, never mind.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    I make a habit of checking various Case Necks from shooters any chance I get.

    In my opinion, all that about finishing necks with sandpaper belies the fact that there was a flaw in the original neck turning procedure.


    A parallel issue to the case neck diameter issue is that MOST shooters do not know what their barrel neck diameter actually is. Nor do many who chamber know what diameter their reamers ACTUALLY cut.

    Example, if a shooter is striving or a 0.0015" total clearance and their case neck is 0.00075" small and their reamer cut 0.00075" larger than it is marked, then you have ???? total clearance.


    .

  11. #11
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    The search for perfection is elusive.

    Isn't the basic purpose of shooting off of a benchrest to eliminate much of the human factor in shooting?

    The use of the Houston warehouse for benchrest reduced wind factors for the shooters as well. After those major factors are reduced to near nothing, then there are other factors to worry about. Perfection is elusive. It is best to not worry about it.

    Concho Bill

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Wynne View Post
    Isn't the basic purpose of shooting off of a benchrest to eliminate much of the human factor in shooting?

    The use of the Houston warehouse for benchrest reduced wind factors for the shooters as well. After those major factors are reduced to near nothing, then there are other factors to worry about. Perfection is elusive. It is best to not worry about it.

    Concho Bill
    I don't know where I first heard this, (maybe I made it up), but Benchrest Group Shooting can best be described as "removing any variable that will cause a bullet to take a different path than the one before".

    As you noted, there are countless things that will cause it to NOT to take that exact same path. We strive to eliminate as many of these as is practically possible within the constrains placed upon us in The Competitive Arena.

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