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Thread: Tuners what do you think about my first one?

  1. #46
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    Tuner Applications?

    Thanks for a great thread guys, as always it has raised more questions.

    Are there certain applications where the effect of a tuner is more noticeable and has a greater effect on results?

    For example;

    Would a tuner work just as well on a 1000yd heavy gun with a 1.250" parallel barrel as a 100yd light gun?

    Is there any ratio between barrel weight and tuner size/weight?

    I see pictures of lots of thread on a barrel yet the consensus seems to be we move them only thousandths, it there a minimum amount of thread contact area needed?

    Im sure these will only be the start

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Thanks for a great thread guys, as always it has raised more questions.

    Are there certain applications where the effect of a tuner is more noticeable and has a greater effect on results?

    For example;

    Would a tuner work just as well on a 1000yd heavy gun with a 1.250" parallel barrel as a 100yd light gun?

    Is there any ratio between barrel weight and tuner size/weight?

    I see pictures of lots of thread on a barrel yet the consensus seems to be we move them only thousandths, it there a minimum amount of thread contact area needed?

    Im sure these will only be the start
    Back when I first started fooling around with tuners, I did design and try one on two Rail Guns, my own and and Bill Sturms. These guns have 1.450 barrels mounted in barrel blocks. The tuners weighed around 20 ounces.

    These tuners were the same design as the ones we were using on our Bag Guns, just larger and heavier.

    I really could not see that much benefit in my Rail Gun. It could be because after the 8 inch long bock, and the 2 inches sticking out the action end, there was simply not enough of the 22 1/2 inch long barrel left unsupported for the Tuner to affect it.

    On my Friends Rail, which was a Speedy Rail with. 26 inch barrel, the Tuner did have some affect. But one of the affects was disastrous.

    We got the gun shooting really well, and Bill decided to shoot a group as fast as he could. In short, the instant he put the top back against the stop, let the next shot go.

    The results were huge .350+ groups. This was a huge surprise. Bill then shot another group, taking his time. This resulted in a very competitive group. He then repeated the test, with the same results. We then removed the Tuner, and did the test again. The Gun shot great whether running and gunning, or slow and deliberate.

    Needless to say, Bill said he did not want the Tuner. Figuring out what was going on was the big question.

    I suspect it had something to do with a weird vibration being sent back through the entire assembly as Bill put the top against the stop and let the shot go. You never see this on a Bag Gun because a shooter simply cannot cycle, re-aim, and shoot the gun that fast.

    I don't have that tuner any more, I gave it to someone to play with. But this is what the threads on the barrel looked like.

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1495021182

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1495021278

    As for length of the thread, since I encorporate a dampening feature in my tuners, I want a substantial amount of contact with the barrel.

    Picture a barrel vibrating. Try to dampen it by pinching the end with just two fingers. Then, grab it with your entire hand. Which is more affective?
    Not very scientific. But that's the way I do it.
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    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 05-17-2017 at 08:02 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie schmidt View Post
    Back when I first started fooling around with tuners, I did design and try one on two Rail Guns, my own and and Bill Sturms. These guns have 1.450 barrels mounted in barrel blocks. The tuners weighed around 20 ounces.

    These tuners were the same design as the ones we were using on our Bag Guns, just larger and heavier.

    I really could not see that much benefit in my Rail Gun. It could be because after the 8 inch long bock, and the 2 inches sticking out the action end, there was simply not enough of the 22 1/2 inch long barrel left unsupported for the Tuner to affect it.

    On my Friends Rail, which was a Speedy Rail with. 26 inch barrel, the Tuner did have some affect. But one of the affects was disastrous.

    We got the gun shooting really well, and Bill decided to shoot a group as fast as he could. In short, the instant he put the top back against the stop, let the next shot go.

    The results were huge .350+ groups. This was a huge surprise. Bill then shot another group, taking his time. This resulted in a very competitive group. He then repeated the test, with the same results. We then removed the Tuner, and did the test again. The Gun shot great whether running and gunning, or slow and deliberate.

    Needless to say, Bill said he did not want the Tuner. Figuring out what was going on was the big question.

    I suspect it had something to do with a weird vibration being sent back through the entire assembly as Bill put the top against the stop and let the shot go. You never see this on a Bag Gun because a shooter simply cannot cycle, re-aim, and shoot the gun that fast.

    I don't have that tuner any more, I gave it to someone to play with. But this is what the threads on the barrel looked like.

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1495021182

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1495021278

    As for length of the thread, since I encorporate a dampening feature in my tuners, I want a substantial amount of contact with the barrel.

    Picture a barrel vibrating. Try to dampen it by pinching the end with just two fingers. Then, grab it with your entire hand. Which is more affective?
    Not very scientific. But that's the way I do it.
    Jackie, I have a similar experience. Did you ever try a lighter tuner. Believe it or not, my experience is that your 20 oz tuner was too heavy...as counter intuitive as that may seem. There are several "experts" that claim a stiffer barrel takes less weight to tune...not more. I won't speculate as to why, but it does seem to hold true when barrel stiffness and tuner weight are both at pretty extreme points, compared to most barrels and tuners. I do know that the weight aspect of a tuner is very forgiving, but maybe not quite that much. What I have seen is that more weight is a good thing, to a point, but that 20 ounces is well beyond that point on any barrel I've ever tested...be it cf, rf or air rifle. Of course, this is without regard for class weight limits, poor gun handling..etc.

  4. #49
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    There is a West Coast shooter that was using a two disk Beggs tuner on his LV/Sporter. He reported that his heavier barreled HV did not respond as he wanted with two, so he added a third disc and it did.

    Lou Murdica has use an oversized Stewart (two disk) with good results on his rail barrel.

  5. #50
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    I tried the heavy tuners on the rail

    they would shoot great slow, but fast they always gave alot of verticle. I made a beggs style tuner from aluminum which weighs right at 6 oz. It tunes just like a bag gun but you can run them fast. It will still give a tiny bit of verticle when running but it is liveable.

    Richard

  6. #51
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    I've seen several rf rifles with say, .850 straight contour barrels around 24" long with a pound of tuner weight on them. You can watch the barrel bounce when you close the bolt..but they shoot. Not saying that there is nothing at all to what I think some are getting at here...there may be...but I don't think it's as simple as the last few posts make it seem and won't pretend to know as much as I'd like when really getting into the "why's" of a tuner doing what it does. I've done more research and testing than most..and even vibration analysis testing, but there is still lots left to learn. The part that matters most is the "how to make them work", part. That part is as easy as it gets, very repeatable and very consistent.

    One thing is very certain as far as I've been able to find, at least. That being, there's a whole lot more at play than I think anyone can fully explain...yet.

    There are some simple and easy rules to using a tuner, that many fail to follow. The most common mistake, without getting into tuner design pro and cons, is making way to big of adjustments.

    A very good general rule with tuners is to be very methodical and assume everything you've read or heard about them is wrong until proven otherwise.

  7. #52
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    Dale,

    I sent you a PM.

    Richard

  8. #53
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    Confused...

    Guys,

    Can you tell me where I introduce the tuner?

    My load development usually consists of an OCW test where I monitor ES and assess the bullet/powder combo by looking for a stable POI, when happy I choose my OCW then fine tune things with a seating depth test and then once I find best accuracy I look for it to repeat, if it repeats within acceptable tolerance then Im good to go.

    So if starting again with a tuner should I fit it at the beginning of this proccess and then tune the groups after I have finished the seating depth testing or should I fit it to the barrel after the load development and then try to tune this load further?
    Last edited by Curious; 05-20-2017 at 02:06 AM.

  9. #54
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    Adding weight to the end that is ABOVE bore diameterchanges the fundamental vibrations of the cantilevered barrel.

    A rod, barrel, or any other shape hase fundamental vibration modes.

    The end vibrates in both up and down and side to side modes.

    It often is slightly elliptical since the metal and resulting stress in it is not perfectly uniform.

    We can tune loads to try and make them reach the muzzle at the same point in vibration.

    Adding a mass on the end of the cantilever fundamentally changes HOW it will vibrate.

    The actual muzzle can be at a vibration node that has little appreciable motion.

    This should allow for variation in OTHER parts of the 'system' to have a reduced effect.

    The 'sweet spot' is larger.


    That little ball on the end of an straight antenna supported at one end (like cars used to have) reduces the motion of the tip appreciably.

    That in turn reduces the forces exerted on the antenna base and mount.

    On my old F-150 pickup you could see it in a light rain.

    A node was about 1 inch below the ball.
    The base is forced to be another node.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Guys,

    Can you tell me where I introduce the tuner?

    My load development usually consists of an OCW test where I monitor ES and assess the bullet/powder combo by looking for a stable POI, when happy I choose my OCW then fine tune things with a seating depth test and then once I find best accuracy I look for it to repeat, if it repeats within acceptable tolerance then Im good to go.

    So if starting again with a tuner should I fit it at the beginning of this proccess and then tune the groups after I have finished the seating depth testing or should I fit it to the barrel after the load development and then try to tune this load further?
    Simple question, simple answer.....more or less.
    Go ahead with whatever load workup, seating depth etc. I would probably suggest you thread for the tuner, but that really is optional. Once you are satisfied that your load is the best for that barrel, screw on the tuner. I prefer to start with it in as far as it will go and then back off two full turns. This give you plenty of working space, although in truth you will only need about 1/4 turn at most. You could start with it all the way out and two turns in. (I'm thinking Mike prefers it that way.) The fact is, either one will work. Next fire a three shot group as a base line. If the group has no vertical, lock it down you are there. But most of us like to tinker, so turn the tuner, either way, 1/16". Fire another three shot group. It should be slightly larger or slightly smaller. If it's larger go the other way, past you original mark 1/16" and fire another 3 shots. If it's smaller, either stop there (no vertical) or move another 1/16". It won't take long, if you have a good barrel, to reduce the vertical to "0". You can stop or do a couple more groups to confirm. This is simple stuff, don't overthink it. Make VERY small adjustments. That's all there is to it.

    Rick

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Simple question, simple answer.....more or less.
    Go ahead with whatever load workup, seating depth etc. I would probably suggest you thread for the tuner, but that really is optional. Once you are satisfied that your load is the best for that barrel, screw on the tuner. I prefer to start with it in as far as it will go and then back off two full turns. This give you plenty of working space, although in truth you will only need about 1/4 turn at most. You could start with it all the way out and two turns in. (I'm thinking Mike prefers it that way.) The fact is, either one will work. Next fire a three shot group as a base line. If the group has no vertical, lock it down you are there. But most of us like to tinker, so turn the tuner, either way, 1/16". Fire another three shot group. It should be slightly larger or slightly smaller. If it's larger go the other way, past you original mark 1/16" and fire another 3 shots. If it's smaller, either stop there (no vertical) or move another 1/16". It won't take long, if you have a good barrel, to reduce the vertical to "0". You can stop or do a couple more groups to confirm. This is simple stuff, don't overthink it. Make VERY small adjustments. That's all there is to it.

    Rick
    I agree with the last part, Rick..about keeping adjustments small and not over complicating this. Other than that, we should talk.

    I start with my tuner on, during load development..BUT, I don't touch it until I settle on a load. I know what you are stating has been said many times on the various forums and that it can work, but why would I work up a load and then add something that essentially changes the barrel contour? That makes no sense to me. It does make sense to develop the load with it on but adjusting it while tuning with powder charge and seating depth methods is simply changing two things at once and it's much simpler to change one thing at a time and not chase your tail.

    With my tuner, I run it all the way in then back it off 1/2 to a full turn...wherever a number you like pops up top...I like the number zero. My tuners are not designed to be, nor should they be "locked down". There are nylon tipped set screws that do set the tension against turning but allow adjustment without tools or damaging the threads on the barrel, with proper tension. This is as simple as running them in until they touch plus 1/4 to 3/8 of a turn on each of the three set screws.

    The nylon tipped set screws not only set tension and allow for adjustment without tools, but they also load the threads, taking up for necessary clearance....A zero clearance thread is called "galled". They also dampen high frequency vibration, that is inevitable at a joint, short of a welded one.
    Lastly, the nylon tipped set screws ride on the threads of the barrel. Behind those threads is a flat or journal machined on the barrel that an o-ring inside the rear of the tuner rides on. This, along with the 3 set screws, gives a total of 4 points of support along 1-1/2" of threads and o-ring journal...making for a well supported devise that doesn't move, is easily adjusted and is both repeatable and consistent.

    They use a 32 tpi thread pitch count and have 32 marks on the tuner. This equates to almost exactly .001" of tuner travel per mark on the tuner. 1/16 of a turn is equivalent to 2 marks on the tuner. Once set, this would be equal to the largest tuner adjustment I have ever made on my tuner during a match, due to condition changes throughout the course of a day. You were probably there...at Somerset, a few years ago now, when the temp started out very cold and went up 45 during the day. So, that's 2 marks on my tuner over a 45 temp swing. That's the most I have ever had to move my tuner at any match since I started making them, a few years ago, now. Point being, 1/16 of a turn is a huge adjustment for only a conditional change in tune.

    If you read my posts over the last few years, you'll find that I often state that there are 4 marks, on a typical short range BR contour barrel, between completely in tune to completely out of tune. Over hundreds of these tuners now, this has proven to be very, very predictable. The 4 marks vs 2 marks is based on the fact that while the tuner can be out as far as 4 marks, I have never seen it that far out from conditional changes alone.

    In reality, once set, I don't think you should ever see the need to move more than two marks for condition changes, or 4 marks for any other changes, such as a totally different load or just starting out with a new tuner install.

    Yes, I know this flies in the face of what some say. I do not base my findings on anything I have read or heard. Rather, what I have proven to myself to be true without doubt. The only exception to this has been a small one. That being, there seems to be as many as 6 marks from completely in, to completely out of tune on some of the long 1.250 straight contours used mostly in long range.

    I promise you...everything I have just posted is way beyond anecdotal. It's remarkably consistent! Even across a wide range of contours, guns, calibers..everything centerfire, so far. Rimfire and air rifle are even only slightly different, but still very consistent in their own right.
    I'd like to talk more with you about it in person when we see each other...and you're not running wide open.

    I can even predict group size and shape and correlate it to tuner setting, now. It sounds complicated...but it's really not at all. It just couldn't be much easier. Maybe we can both get a little time to meet and shoot one day soon.

    p.s. --Curious---I hope this post answers many questions that you have sent to me by email that I have had too little time to answer. --Mike

  12. #57
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    Mike,
    I don't see any disagreement here. You just went into more details as to how things work and experience. To be fair and maybe clearer, I don't do any load development with the tuner off. I have my barrels threaded for a tuner and install them before the first shot. I am a true believer. However, I believe that most folks who have no experience with them feel that load development needs to take place first. Rather than argue, I except that. If that's what people believe it works for me. With a 6 PPC I have one load that has worked very well with at least 4 rifles and 6 barrels. With several 220 Beggs I have used the same load, 26.0grs of LT 32, and never had to change anything other than the tuner. I start there and adjust the tuner. I has worked pretty well so far. So, no disagreement at all.

    Rick

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Mike,
    I don't see any disagreement here. You just went into more details as to how things work and experience. To be fair and maybe clearer, I don't do any load development with the tuner off. I have my barrels threaded for a tuner and install them before the first shot. I am a true believer. However, I believe that most folks who have no experience with them feel that load development needs to take place first. Rather than argue, I except that. If that's what people believe it works for me. With a 6 PPC I have one load that has worked very well with at least 4 rifles and 6 barrels. With several 220 Beggs I have used the same load, 26.0grs of LT 32, and never had to change anything other than the tuner. I start there and adjust the tuner. I has worked pretty well so far. So, no disagreement at all.

    Rick
    My apologies Rick. It does sound like you have a very good handle on them. At times, I also use the tuner to make a given load shoot well. I feel a tuner will allow you to get whatever potential a given load has from a given rifle in a given condition. So, if the load is junk it will be junk with or without a tuner. We do agree but we can still get together sometime soon. I'm getting much more caught up on orders and shooting projects but am working on a real estate deal that will change my life if it continues to come together. Gotta do my due diligence and then some to make it happen.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwezell View Post
    My apologies Rick. It does sound like you have a very good handle on them. At times, I also use the tuner to make a given load shoot well. I feel a tuner will allow you to get whatever potential a given load has from a given rifle in a given condition. So, if the load is junk it will be junk with or without a tuner. We do agree but we can still get together sometime soon. I'm getting much more caught up on orders and shooting projects but am working on a real estate deal that will change my life if it continues to come together. Gotta do my due diligence and then some to make it happen.
    Good on ya! Hope it comes together.

    Rick

  15. #60
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    Thanks for your input guys, I have made a tuner that weighs 12oz for a 30" 1.250" diameter barrel.

    My current load for this rifle (105Hybrids from a 6 Dasher) is decent, 5 shots into the mid 0.2s but I will try the tuner on with that and see if it can be tuned any?

    If I do any new load development with this barrel I will fit the tuner from the start.

    Out of interest what size exit hole do you guys have for 6mm?

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