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Thread: How much difference

  1. #31
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    [QUOTE=Rflshootr...........I was referring to was the original post was about 7mm's and hunting rifles. Somehow that got off on a tangent...........[/QUOTE]

    Thank you for being civil.

    I've never owned a 7-08 nor made brass for one but I'm fairly familiar with the 284 case. And I've made dozens of iterations of the small primer cases.

    I can't argue with Kielly's experience (the key being EXPERIENCE) and I've never actually done what I'm proposing so I'm 'wayyy out on a slippery limb.......and maybe even unknowingly blowing big billowing smoke....but I'd be righteously blown away if the 284 case will beat a small primer 7-08 by 100fps even with 30% more capacity. And it would do so at a much lower pressure which generally means higher ES.

    In point of fact, I'll be righteously blown if the 284 EVER re-experiences it's former glory as a competitive LR case. For this to happen it would have to be produced by Lapua.....with a small primer/flashhole LOL!!!

    This from a guy who back in the early 90's memorized Brennan's 'Precision Shooting at 1000 Yards" and spent lots of money on stuff that fell right on it's face. That book was outdated before it hit print. By the time I had guns built I was two generations behind the curve! I've bought into a lot of other people's speculations......I try hard now to share only factual, data-driven ideas.

    AND.....back in '93-'94 when I came on this shooting board claiming 2900fps with 105's from the 6BR....WHEWWW!!!!

  2. #32
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    Al....you're welcome.

    Maybe the next time I have a couple extra dollars laying around I'll buy a box of 308 palma brass, neck it down to 7mm and do some chrono testing to see what happens and share the results. My gut says it won't make that big of a difference in a Hunting Rifle. Maybe I'll be surprised, maybe not. But part of the fun is experimenting just to see what happens if......

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Thank you for being civil.

    In point of fact, I'll be righteously blown if the 284 EVER re-experiences it's former glory as a competitive LR case. !
    IF YOU LOOK AT f class, some of the record holders are in long throat straight 284 win.
    i know one that has won in 600/1000 br in the last couple of years.
    look up dave gosnell in f class records

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaier View Post
    IF YOU LOOK AT f class, some of the record holders are in long throat straight 284 win.
    i know one that has won in 600/1000 br in the last couple of years.
    look up dave gosnell in f class records
    Well yeahh.....I do forget about those venues where accuracy is secondary. People also win competitions standing on their hind feet or peering through peeps shooting wooden battle rifles at 20ft targets.

    My bad.

    So.......I don't predict the 284 to be taking over ACCURACY VENUES like BR.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rflshootr View Post
    Al....you're welcome.

    Maybe the next time I have a couple extra dollars laying around I'll buy a box of 308 palma brass, neck it down to 7mm and do some chrono testing to see what happens and share the results. My gut says it won't make that big of a difference in a Hunting Rifle. Maybe I'll be surprised, maybe not. But part of the fun is experimenting just to see what happens if......
    I'm seriously confused by your continued use of the term "Hunting Rifle" as though it's somehow different from others?

    In my world a hunting rifle costs three times a full-blown state-of-the-art Bench Rest Rifle.

    BR guns are cheap......hog 'em out, glue 'em together and SHOOT!

    easy-peasy

  6. #36
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    Well I guess I'm just not that fancy to spend 3x the cost of a BR rifle to drag up and down hills and through the woods to kill a deer......my pocket says more like 1/2 the cost as long as it goes "bang" and whatever it is pointing at dies. That's really all I need. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

  7. #37
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    you selectively skipped the part where he shoots and WINS
    600/1000 BENCHREST matches WITH THE SAME RIFLE he uses in f class.
    records in br, no; wins in br yes;
    setting the br community on fire , no.


    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Well yeahh.....I do forget about those venues where accuracy is secondary. People also win competitions standing on their hind feet or peering through peeps shooting wooden battle rifles at 20ft targets.

    My bad.

    So.......I don't predict the 284 to be taking over ACCURACY VENUES like BR.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rflshootr View Post
    Well I guess I'm just not that fancy to spend 3x the cost of a BR rifle to drag up and down hills and through the woods to kill a deer......my pocket says more like 1/2 the cost as long as it goes "bang" and whatever it is pointing at dies. That's really all I need. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
    I build rifles for people to shoot stuff wayyy out there, ethically. Not modified Weatherby's or slapped together 338 Lapuas but stuff that actually agg's under 1/4moa with VLD-style hunting bullets. In a repeater....with bullets in a magazine....This type rifle costs a lot more than a BR gun.

    But the guys that use them aren't tromping through the swamp hunting deers in Minn-DeSoda either. For that a 300 Savage Model 99 fills the hand nicely

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaier View Post
    you selectively skipped the part where he shoots and WINS
    600/1000 BENCHREST matches WITH THE SAME RIFLE he uses in f class.
    records in br, no; wins in br yes;
    setting the br community on fire , no.
    I'm not really disagreeing with you, and I'm not denigrating F-Class nor any other venue. I am just geared towards raw accuracy potential.

    I din't selectively skip them, I am just saying that this setup can't be built to the accuracy standard of some others..

  10. #40
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    Old Rem BR cases had small primers

    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    The new cases have only been out for a couple yrs....maybe three?
    There were also some 30-30 cases made with small primer holes, I have had and still have some of them., 308's, BR cases and the American 30-30 brass.

    Pete

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    There were also some 30-30 cases made with small primer holes, I have had and still have some of them., 308's, BR cases and the American 30-30 brass.

    Pete
    Yup, those 308's were the URBR cases......I've still got 4-5 boxes also. They're useless.

    I have an old Carmichel Huntington CHeetah.....a flop with the URBR cases but it ROCKS the Palma cases....

  12. #42
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    I have not been one

    Quote Originally Posted by alinwa View Post
    Yup, those 308's were the URBR cases......I've still got 4-5 boxes also. They're useless.

    I have an old Carmichel Huntington CHeetah.....a flop with the URBR cases but it ROCKS the Palma cases....
    who put a lot of stock in cases adding much to rifle accuracy. It just hasn't been the experience I have had over the years with 30 Cal rifles.

    I wouldn't disagree on the quality off BR cases. They are pretty much junk. The American 30-30 cases, on the other hand, are not junk and I saw no difference in the performance between them and any other 30-30 case I used. The Rem cases were too soft, mostly, from my experience; wouldn't hold primers with the juice we put into them. It has never made any sense to me that a small fire would be better than a large one or that it could matter all that much.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete Wass; 01-13-2017 at 03:53 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    who put a lot of stock in cases adding much to rifle accuracy. It just hasn't been the experience I have had over the years with 30 Cal rifles.

    I wouldn't disagree on the quality off BR cases. They are pretty much junk. The American 30-30 cases, on the other hand, are not junk and I saw no difference in the performance between them and any other 30-30 case I used. The Rem cases were too soft, mostly, from my experience; wouldn't hold primers with the juice we put into them. It has never made any sense to me that a small fire would be better than a large one or that it could matter all that much.

    Pete
    There is a logical reason it works.....the old URBR cases have a huge flashhole and the new ones have a teeny PPC-sized hole. Firing them in the dark it's very easy to see the difference. The small hole builds pressure, sears long and hot like a torch. The fat hole dribbles like a garden hose.

    I fireform in the dark a lot, using pistol powder. I have a no-barreled setup I can screw pipes onto. When I want to see primer effect I just leave the powder out.

    I also have a bunch of 7.62X39 large flashhole cases concerted to PPC and I've drilled flashholes out incrementally.

    This is a test anyone here could perform. With the PPC or with the 308. Or whatever...

    If they would take the time.

  14. #44
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    But,

    the ignition of any cartridge in modern times happens so quickly; how could it make all that much difference in terms of what a barrel will give anyone?

    Pete

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    the ignition of any cartridge in modern times happens so quickly; how could it make all that much difference in terms of what a barrel will give anyone?

    Pete
    Because the primer pocket and flashhole are drilled/punched into the casehead, they weaken the casehead. Generally speaking the "MAX" load of any round is that point at which the caseheads expand from hydraulic pressure.....which is the result of gas pressure metered thru the flashhole and expanding the primer pocket. Once the casehead expands, the primer gets loose and the case is destroyed. The small primer/flashhole combo allows one to run pressures up much higher (like PPC/BR rounds) which results in two gains. #1, a cleaner burn and #2 a higher working pressure. The result is higher velocity and generally better accuracy, altho this last is of course debatable..

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