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Thread: Tuner question (not for real......) :) maybe?

  1. #1
    scott mims Guest

    Tuner question (not for real......) :) maybe?

    Ok...... Is it strictly the "turning" of the tuner that does what "it does" to accuracy or does the weight of the tuner play a part in it?
    Also has anyone tried putting washers (rubber or other material) up and down a barrel to see if it would have the same outcome as a tuner on the end of the barrel? I'm sure you would have to keep a eye on the rubber washer so when the barrel heats up they wouldn't melt 😄

    But seriously has anyone done that test before.... One thick washer and go up and down on the barrel to find the tune or several different washers up and down the barrel....... Sorry for the strange question.........it is February after all 😄

  2. #2
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    Scott, in a nutshell, weight at the muzzle changes both the frequency and amplitude of vibration, vs. no weight(tuner). Moving that weight makes changing the frequency possible. The weight creates more amplitude, effectively slowing the muzzle and making it's movement more vertically biased. The benefits here are longer and more pronounced dwell times at optimal bullet exit points, in turn, yielding a wider tune window. Some use a tuner for this benefit alone, but still tune with powder charge/seating depth..etc.

    Moving the tuner OTOH, is essentially doing the same thing as tuning with traditional methods. That being, timing bullet exit with the muzzle being at a node, producing optimum tune or accuracy for a given setup. A huge benefit here is the ability to tune at the bench rather than changing loads.

    I go to matches pre-loaded and only adjust the tuner, if/when needed, to maintain tune..the same way as if I were changing loads to keep the gun/ammo in tune. I've been doing it this way since I first started using tuners several years ago, now.

    Tuners are much, much easier to use than to understand. They take very little movement to maintain tune. The most common misconception people make with tuners is assuming that they need big adjustments. If that were true, they would likely over complicate matters. In fact, that's far from the case, though. They are extremely easy to use..IMO, much, much easier than learning to tune by traditional methods. Different tuner styles and variables such as barrel contour play a role in this, but typically, movement as little as a single mark on the tuner is enough to maintain tune throughout the day, and often, due to the wider tune window that the mass at the end of the barrel gives...no adjustments are needed at all. My tuners have 32 hash marks and are threaded .900x32tpi, so, we're literally talking about being able to see on target, .001" of tuner travel. It's very typical to go from completely in tune, to completely out of tune in about .004", or 4 marks with my tuner. I'll include a link to my tuner page. There's some good reading there should you wish to view it.
    Here's the link. The pics are old. The cf tuner(top) is designed to be threaded onto the barrel. The bottom pic is a rf tuner, made to be clamped on.
    http://www.ezellcustomrifles.com/home-3/pdt-tuners/


    As for rubber washers etc., I can only say that while some have claimed good results, I have not done enough testing to be conclusive. I have wrapped a barrel with .080" thick heat shrink tubing...It didn't work for me.
    Last edited by mwezell; 02-28-2015 at 06:52 AM.

  3. #3
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    Years ago, I did some tuner testing. None of if contradicts what Mike wrote, but I will add one thing. The rubber damps vibration. This is demonstrable by tapping on a free floated barrel with a small piece of metal. Not all things rubber or plastic are created equal in this regard. IMO heat shrink tubing was created for other purposes than damping vibration. I have used Sims Laboratory's Deresonator for this purpose, and it is quite effective in damping vibration. Of course its placement on the barrel is another matter, but the damping is quite evident by the sound with and without. Essentially there are two issues here, barrel vibration frequency and amplitude, which are influenced by tuner position and weight, and the damping of spurious vibration that may originate from the action of the striker assembly and bolt in the action. (Yes this is conjecture.) As to the proper way to use a tuner, one of the most successful tuner users in CF short range benchrest, Gene Buckys, tells me that he sets his tuner for the broadest node that he can find, after first tuning his rifle without it, and then from that point on, he tunes in the normal manner, as if he were not using a tuner. He told me that he specifically does not want to move a tuner during a match. My point in mentioning this is not to say that one approach is more correct, but rather to point out that successful shooters vary in their opinions as to how to best use their tuners. From what I hear, preloading is mostly done by score shooters, and sees little use in group. I think that it may be that the .30 BR lends itself to this more than the 6PPC. Getting back to Gene Buckys for a moment, he says that the primary advantage of tuners is that they broaden nodes.

  4. #4
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    Thanks Boyd. I agree. I think the biggest hurdle standing between more widespread use of tuners is weight in lv class. Without adding mass to the overall barrel, tuners are much less effective. IOW, it needs to be heavy enough to work...OR, as we've discussed, barrels need to be more tuner friendly. I still plan to hinge a barrel pretty soon. I'll keep you posted on what I find, but time has been very short of late and the weather has been uncooperative, to say the least.

    There are exceptions to virtually everything in life, and in br, but I can't think of anyone who has given tuners serious consideration that has regretted using them. Weight keeps a lot of people from trying them.

    Whether one uses a tuner like Gene, strictly for the wider nodes, or like most of the rest of us, to adjust, they have proven to me to be a valuable tool where weight allows. Frankly, while I'm not going to knock what works for one of the best shooters on the planet, I don't understand the notion of not using the adjustability that tuners give. With index marks, it's simple enough to put the tuner right back where it was or to adjust for tune. Again, IME, adjustments are very small but clear on the target. Worrying about getting lost is not an issue.

    Of course Gene is also one of the best ever at keeping up with tune by the traditional powder charge/seating depth method. That would surely be a factor in why he uses a tuner as simply a weight.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FBecigneul View Post
    Changing Genes and going to Gene Beggs.
    We have been using the Gene Beggs tuners ever since I quit bashing them and actually tried them. We tune as dictated to by the Kestrel 4000 Weather Tracker and the Density Altitude that it calculates. My range notes are in a safe right now and I don't feel like standing up, walking across the room, and unlocking the safe but I'd say we've used the Beggs Tuners for about 8 years. What was appealing to us is that they weigh 4 ounces and in LV class you don't have a lot of weight to give away with some stock, action, barrels. For one inch of the barrel you have to take the O.D. down to a diameter and thread it for the tuner so the tuner installation doesn't actually add 4 ounces to the rifle. We have scribed the tuners with marks representing one hour around the tuner. A change of 250 feet of density altitude dictates a turn of one hour (1/12th rotation) on the tuner in our case(s). I use the plural because we have a tuner on about 8 or 10 barrels and they all react differently. Before I went the route of the tuner, Calfee was an idiot and Gene Beggs didn't know what he was talking about. But then we started actually using the tuner and had to admit that Calfee and Beggs were right.
    So Scott, what are you doing these days? You can e-mail me at my e-mail by clicking my name. Did I hear you are no longer at UPS?
    That sounds about right Francis. With the difference in weight between the Beggs tuner and mine, both being 32 tpi, mine extending beyond the muzzle..yada, yada..

    I recently was able to closely calculate the weight needed for one of my tuners to respond with similar tuner movements as I typically see on hv contour barrels, but on a 1.450 barrel blocked rifle with 19" of barrel beyond the block. When all was said and done, total tuner weight was 15.9ozs and the barrel responded to tuner movement very much the same as a 7.4 ounce tuner on my hv rig. Point being, this is all quite predictable. I used Dan Lilja's barrel stiffness calculator to figure how much the tuner should weigh to get it to act like mine. It seemed to work out very close to what I'd hoped for. That rifle was a 57lb 30BR in an aluminum Baer stock. It's all noise at that weight. It'll be shot in UBR unlimited class.

  6. #6
    scott mims Guest
    this post went better than i thought it would. i was waiting to be laughed at. so i guess all of that has been done? thanks for all the replies. Frances i sent you a private message. hope yall are doing good.

  7. #7
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    Id love to have a baer aluminum hg stock

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Stevens View Post
    Id love to have a baer aluminum hg stock
    Me too Dusty. He's suppose to send me some better pics soon. This is all I have of it finished. It makes a NF BR look small, so it's a big un'.

  9. #9
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    Mr Jackson is going to be tough to beat. The competition may be for 2nd place. OTOH- maybe I'll just have to go to more matches that he doesn't shoot

    Rick

  10. #10
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    On barrels found in 100-200 yard Benchrest, the weight of the tuner is of no consequence. Mine go about 4 ounces.

    The best tuners, (IMHO), are the ones with some type of dampener, or as some say, a snubber. I like to believe that this is my creation, if you look back in the archives of Benchrest.com, you might agree. But regardless who came up with it, it works.

    Also, how much you turn the tuner depends on the Threads Per Inch of the adjustment. Mine are 36 TPI. 1/4 turn is a pretty fine adjustment.

    Here is the snubber tuner on my LV.

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1425167415
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    Last edited by jackie schmidt; 02-28-2015 at 07:14 PM.

  11. #11
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    Front view.

    http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1425167415
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox View Post
    Mr Jackson is going to be tough to beat. The competition may be for 2nd place. OTOH- maybe I'll just have to go to more matches that he doesn't shoot

    Rick
    From what I saw from this rifle, and knowing how well Ron can shoot...you might be right. I think the rifle is possibly the ideal unlimited rifle for benchrest for score.

  13. #13
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    Ive got one exactly like it- same shape and all but its made of fiberglass and lead shot. Its 60+ lbs bare stock

  14. #14
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    Wow! How bad do you want an aluminum stock like it?

  15. #15
    scott mims Guest
    i know this has been asked and answered before but what i have always wanted to know is......... with our 6ppc most loads are between 52.5 and 55 clicks. do people with tuners go with the average (53.75) or around there...... load all their loads with that and just adjust the tuner until they find the tune without adding powder or loading less powder? or do people still change loads along with the tuner? is the tuner strictly for small adjustments? i have a hard time with just trying to go up or down on powder i couldnt imagine adding another variable.

    Also in my first post when I was saying rubber washer I meant a rubber O ring
    Last edited by scott mims; 03-01-2015 at 12:44 AM.

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