I think Jeff should do a look at the case capacity rule in the hunter class with an eye to boosting 6x shooter numbers. He's good at polls. Attracting new shooters is vitally important. So is encouraging those already committed to score Benchrest to think about shooting more a la six X. Conglomerating six x shooting into one class would certainly increase competition. Winning is nice but if you beat yourself, what's the point? No one shooting Benchrest has any aversion to competition.
This absolutely begs the question...How did 40 out of 50 6x guns wind up at Van Dyne for a club match vs, the national championship match, just across Lake Michigan from one another?
Originally Posted by Dick Grosbier
The numbers from the Van Dyne, Wi. NBRSA Wi. State Championships: 48 of us.
There were over 50 competitors there. Several local shooters chose to 'sit out' the event so they didn't have to run five relays as Van Dyne has 12 benches.
Good shootin'. -Al
It could probably be summed up as loyalty. I believe the Van Dyne match is an annual event and not a "Club" match but an NBRSA registered match.
Originally Posted by mwezell
When made known of the conflict the Michigan club just felt they needed to do the match on the weekend they had picked. A large number of regular 6x shooters that did a good job of supporting the Michigan Nationals two years earlier expressed their view on the conflict by voting with their feet and going to Wisconsin ! This should be a valuable lesson to all clubs, the mere fact is is a nationals does not mean people will automatically come.
If I have any of this wrong I am confident Al Nyhus will correct me.
Dick, IMO you nailed the situation perfectly.....a pinwheeled 'X'.
Good shootin'. -Al
In taking two view points of competition 1) I am competing against myself and when I shoot well I win no matter what the outcome. and 2) I am competing against the field of shooters and "my best"/winning is achieved when a first place award is given. The combining of the classes would not offend the first and would satisfy the second very well. If we weren't interested in competition we would stay at our home range and shoot on overcast days with little wind allowing us to make wallet groups or 25x scores.
As a match director, I would like to see the classes combined for a few reasons -monetarily it would save us about $70/yr which is not that much in the scheme of things, but every penny counts to a club. On a pure competition standpoint I want to see as many competitors on the line as possible. Fill up those relays! I did feel a great deal of pride when we had a field of 15 VH and Hunter competitors at our first state match. I would like to know if those who shot in both classes would have rather been competing against a field of 15 instead of a field of 5 or 10. I know that I would rather have 15.
I think that, for the most part, the guys that shoot these classes would rather have more competitors with whom to shoot against. As the competition at our club has grown I know that most of the guys would rather have a field of 5 instead of a split 3 and 2 or 4 and 1. Combining the classes would help increase these odds and maybe entice more shooters to build a VarHunter rig.
Again, you would not insult the first type of competitor and satisfy the second.
If I were to build a gun for the class I would probably go for the class that had the most competitors in it and shoot something different than I shoot in VFS. That's just me....maybe a 30x47.
The "single rifle in more types of competition" sounds right but may not be in all cases. So that I won't have to write a lengthy explanation, I'll use an extreme example. If we made it such that rail guns were suddenly legal in all classes, then anybody that wanted to win would need a rail gun. As long as the change allows entry with the same or lesser capable rifles you're good - if not you're gonna lose attendance or the attendance gained comes at such an expense it's not worth it. Not only does the actual need careful consideration but the perceived as well. Can't win against a majority of perception. The saving grace here, NBRSAwise, is that the competitors get the last say on equipment changes at the national event.
Like Jeff, I don't belong in any score specific discussion. I don't completely understand all that's involved but the case capacity deal has been there a long time.......just sayin'. That said, I'll get my nose out and go do something unimportant.
If the bore size and case capacity is removed from Hunter class, then you will end up with 6 power 30BRs. The 30BR has all but completely taken over VFS, and would do the same to Hunter.
Originally Posted by Wayne Shaw
There are some shooting six X who believe a long throated 30-44 or 47 with 1.080 jacket length bullets are superior to anything else. And if it did evolve to the 30br so what? Look at group shooting? Take care Greg
I know there are die-hard Hunter guys, and that's great. But if the capacity rule is removed, I would guess there would be many that migrate to the 30BR. It seems the VH guys shoot better scores, on average, than Hunter. It's the case capacity that keeps it separate.
It appears to me,while reading these posts, that the appeal to combining Hunter and Varmint Hunter class is for the Clubs that host the events (lower costs for awards) which is crucial. Any club that looses money or makes little or no profit will soon turn to an event that will make money...Here in the western U.S. Cowboy Action shoots are drawing big crowds and money...as is Sporting Clays for the shotgunners...Benchrest requires special equipment and dedication which for the average "fun" shooter is not worth it. Many Pistol shooters and shotgun shooters attend events just for the entertainment not caring whether they win or not..In fact many of our local shotgun events are fundraising for local charities and have raffle awards that can be won by anyone paying the admission fee. I know it is "off subject"...just an observation as to what attracts shooters...IMO
Eddie in Texas
I have recently been working on building a 6x rifle for myself. One of my first concerns was which class to build the rifle for. I like the idea of a smaller case capacity because of the recoil factor. On the other hand I want to compete where there is the most participation. It seems to me that combining the 2 classes into one would answer both my concerns. It would allow for a rifle with less recoil for those who feel it is the best way to go, but it would also create a class where there, in all likleyhood, would be the highest possible number of 6x competators. I have purposly avoided 6x shooting for many years, because I did not like the split and resultant low number of shooters in either class at smaller local matches, which is where I get most of my practice.
For the rifle I am building now, I am limited to the smaller case capacity simply because my action is real small and will not accomodate the longer rounds. To combine these 2 classes would make me real happy, because I would be able to compete with the largest number of shooters and still use my little action rifle.
I've been shooting NBRSA 6X Hunter Class for score as often as I can since 2001. I love the 6X scope on the heavy RED border NBRSA target, as that 6X field of view allows me to see all my flags through the scope, as I hold my POA on the target, even at the 100 yd. match. Seeing my flags and my target at the same time without moving my head, is a big help for me as the conditions are usually in constant change. The existing 30-30 size water capacity rule has not been a problem to me, as I just use a recoil pad to handle the recoil problem.
The bottom line for the future of BR shooting, both Score and Group, is "no brainer" WE ARE A DIEING SPORT! If BR are is to survive, we must actively attract new shooters and help them learn how to love the sport as we do. Simple rules that will INCLUDE more and restrict LESS would seem to be REAL help in attracting the new shooters we MUST have to survive!.
Caliber and case capacity need not be restricted as we have been. The 6X scope classes should be retained on their own merits. Higher powers scopes classes can be 10X to 100X, and still give no one a genuine advantage, when you consider field of view and mirage issues! Rifle weights and stock foreend width, within reason, should be relaxed to include more shooters! We can DRAW A "LINE IN THE SAND" date wise to segregate existing RECORDS AND HOF members. Let us work TOGETHER, the NBRSA and the IBS, (I'm a member of both) to enable our beloved BR sport SURVIVE!
T K Nollan
Well Stated T.K. !
Originally Posted by Barrel Saver
TK Nolan said: "Simple rules that will INCLUDE more and restrict LESS would seem to be REAL help in attracting the new shooters we MUST have to survive!."
There is simple, broadly applicable wisdom in that statement. I've seen it played out over and over again.