You'll just have to break out your 6ppc if you want to see sub .25 MOA accuracy

[Hal D.]

The answer to your question is no, a factory rifle should not be expected to shoot quarter minute groups consistently. It's not impossible, but probably less than 1 percent of factory rifles are capable of this. Most would be lucky to shoot 1 minute. Shooting the occasional quarter inch group is another matter.

[caroby]

perhaps you do not know just how hard it is to sustain that magic quarter inch. elsewhere nearby are the results of the east-west match held last month where eighty folks took their best rifles to qualify for the world team. go check out just how many managed a quarter inch agg after 2 days. and these are guys with a sea of wind flags in front of them that are super good at reading conditions and tuning a rifle.

Damn right Ray..!
Tiny Aggs are VERY Difficult to attain WITH the "BEST" of Benchrest rifles and techniques... The work involved is well........... A LOT.. Lemmings and all! I commend those in this sport that Achieve such Amazing results with such "regularity"... World Class fellers..!

A "factory" rifle even with a PPC chambering...... Well heck, a .2500 5 - 5 shot string (Agg) is just awesome in my book..!

cale

[aka Hunter]

perhaps you do not know just how hard it is to sustain that magic quarter inch.

Ray, my bad, my original question may have been ambigious; did I mean attain .25 MOA on a sustained basis or just once in a while, and did I mean that on any one five-shot target or for an aggregate of five targets? I'm not sure what I meant.

I guess it would be foolish to think a factory gun could consistently agg .25 MOA. As for "once in while" on any one target, I guess anything is possible. BTW, I looked back at all the five-shot groups shot by factory rifles (exclusive of those with after-market barrels and triggers) over the past two years in matches (100 and 200 yds) where I shoot (a total of 360 groups) and I saw seven groups less than .255 (three of which were in the same aggregate); so, I guess a .25 MOA, five-shot group is attainable in a factory gun -- once in a while. Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question.

[Wilbur]

I drove 3 hours to Bristol, TN to try to get my "red hot" benchrest rifle to shoot anything that even resembled a quarter inch. It was agging in the high 3rees. Didn't accomplish anything but met a young fellow there that was shooting a box stock Savage 22-250 into rather tight cloverleaf three shot groups - every time. Since then, I've been rather cautious in discussing factory rifles. I can say that I've never seen a Unicorn but I can't say that I've never seen a quarter inch factory rifle.

[aka Hunter]

[M]et a young fellow there that was shooting a box stock Savage 22-250 into rather tight cloverleaf three shot groups - every time.

I had one of those; however, tight cloverleaf five-shot groups were not the norm.

[ReedG]

Hunter, check your PMs ...

[Pete Wass]

The biggest problem with shooting Benchrest Rifles a lot is the so called "Fctory Rifle" becomes frustrating and, to me, un-interesting. I don't like shooting just to shoot. Guns, to me now, are tools for Accuracy. I never shoot unless I am trying to find better accuracy.

The fellow who cleans my furnace was a big hit with me yesterday telling me he met a fellow who competes with a 30 Cal rifle. I asked the fellows name and he told me. No a name I had ever heard of, of course. He went on to say the rifle was a re-built something or other in 338 Lapua . Said his friend could realllly reach out and touch them now . Conversations like that one are always short for me and did I say something about un-interesting?

Now, that said, I helped run a Cooper Shoot last summer and will again this year. I'm here to tell ya that there are SOME, so-called Factory rifles out there that DO shoot VERY WELL. Not all of them shoot Very Well but I have seen a few Coopers that are .25" easily. Even some of the RF guns are quite amazing. I guess the question is, how many of them does a lad have to go through to get one of the good ones?

[george in KY]

factory guns are a crap shoot at best no real way to tell till ya shoot it...your best bet is to find a low round count sako A1 but they ain't cheap anymore .
other than that the 6BR savage is the way to go. JMO.
if i where you i would find a benchrest shooter or match and find help to tune the cooper in real life.

[goodgrouper]

Ray, my bad, my original question may have been ambigious; Maybe I shouldn't have asked the question.

No, not at all Hunter! Your question was a good one. The reason why it went straight over some heads like a scud out of Baghdad was because they thought of it out of context. When I told Vani about 100 yard accuracy, I meant you have to quit frustrating yourself with getting long range deer rifles to shoot bugholes at 100 yards, and instead, use a gun that is meant specifically for that purpose---like the 6ppc. Then the terminology got confused about 1/4 moa capable rifles and sustainable 1/4 moa rifles which obviously are two different things. Being that I'm an active Benchrest competitor and I use a 6ppc for that, and I was talking originally to somebody who I thought was also the same, my comments were automatically thought of from the standpoint of state of the art equipment and "normal" usage of that for our game. And in that frame of reference, if you have a 6ppc that is shooting "something not even close to 1/4 moa", then you have a serious problem. But for a factory gun, that may be all she's gonna give you.

Sometimes, when working with other guns at 100 yards that are built for other purposes , I catch myself expecting 1/4" groups and I have to back off and remind myself that these ain't BR 6ppc's. 1/2" to 5/8" groups look awful big when you're used to 1/4" or 1/8" groups! But then you remember that 1/2" from a big booming elk rifle is pretty dang good and beats most semi-custom gun builder's accuracy guarantees. So I guess the point is, expect results relative to what you're using.

[aka Hunter]

Hunter, check your PMs ...

Thanks for the heads-up; I checked and saw several that I didn't know were there. Thanks to each of you who shared information via a PM, and to those of you who shared comments above. I look forward to trying the suggested steps, in hopes of one day stumbling into the realm of the quarter-inch group -- at least once.

[Pete Wass]

Thanks for the heads-up; I checked and saw several that I didn't know were there. Thanks to each of you who shared information via a PM, and to those of you who shared comments above. I look forward to trying the suggested steps, in hopes of one day stumbling into the realm of the quarter-inch group -- at least once.

It's quite easy to do, actually. Find a good low cost 6PPC bench gun.The're out there. Don't shoot the barrel out just because it shoots good.

[Ian_Owen]

You'll just have to break out your 6ppc if you want to see sub .25 MOA accuracy ?

Now I've had conversations with a lot of Hunters who say their rifles shoot 1/4 MOA or better in the wind and all the way out to 1000yds...........they never show up at a competition to prove it though. Saying that I have a couple Coopers that will shoot 1/4" 5 shot groups, not all the time though, and I've seen a few Sakos attain that as well..........Ian

[Dick Grosbier]

Is .25 MOA, realistically, attainable with a factory gun? If it is, do you have any suggestions as to powder and bullet?

Depends on the individual rifle, in most cases I would say no. Particularly if you rule out the $1000+ semi custom "FACTORY" rifles.

Dick

[WyleWD]

Cooper varmint, no modifications (haven't even lightened the trigger from its current setting of ~ 2 lbs); shooting 28 gr of N133 in Lapua brass w/ 62 gr custom bullets, seated out to where just a smidgen is in the neck; using bean bags (front and rear) and a Weaver 36 scope, and watching wind flags. Load obtained from prior gun owner. I don't know how he arrived at that load; however, I saw him shoot a 493-9x with that load. My only score shoot resulted in a 486-13x (dropped 12 points at 200 yds); my only group shoot resulted in a 100/200 agg of .6032 (no laughing, please ).

As before, is it realistic to think .25 MOA is attainable with a factory gun?

Attainable, yes. Attainable with all factory rifles, no. Sustainable most likely no. Not to pick on your loading, rifle, or anything.... but from my perspective after reading your set up above what may be some limiting factors.... the 2# trigger, the bullet choice... you might look into trying several brands of 65-70gr bullets, your rests, the crown, and the fit and finish on the stock and forearm, and you might need to try a couple different powder & primer combinations.

As an afterthought..... did you buy this rifle as a "quarter inch all day long" per the original owner? And did he demonstrate this to you? WD

[aka Hunter]

Recently, I started shooting a factory 6PPC, and I'm no where close to .25 MOA. Is .25 MOA, realistically, attainable with a factory gun?

Thanks to each of you who shared information via a PM, and to those of you who shared comments above. I look forward to trying the suggested steps, in hopes of one day stumbling into the realm of the quarter-inch group -- at least once.

I finally stumbled into the elusive quarter-inch, five-shot, 100-yd group with my factory rifle! On my second target Saturday I shot a .257 -- a record for me; on my third target I shot a .243 -- another record for me. My shooting buddy also shot a personal best on his third target -- a .215, with a factory gun also. I guess the sun, moon, and stars were aligned just right Saturday; I wonder how long it will be before that happens again.