Okay, TUNERS AGAIN. Bukys/Schmidt style versus Beggs???????????????

[mwezell]

Rod,
Many thanks for sharing your findings. I am curious about the repeatability of the settings. Let's say you finish a match with the tuner optimally adjusted for temperature XX and humidity YY. The next month at the same range with the same temperature and humidity, the same tuner setting doesn't work? How far do you typically have to move it to find the tune again?

Thanks,
Keith

Keith, Rod may agree or disagree with me on this, but for me it was pretty easy to see how much to move the tuner based on group size and shape. If it shoots big, I turn big..like a couple of numbers on Lambert tuner. That's not much movement of the tuner but it's enough to see a big difference in how it shoots. If it shoots small, I turn small. I can see differences in half numbers on mine. It really comes pretty fast. I feel like, with a good gun, a person can have a reasonably good grasp on what the tuner will do to groups and his gun in less than 100 rounds fired,. and probably more like 50-60, but there is a learning curve. I do still go the wrong way at times when basing adjustment on group size and shape, but you know what you did wrong instanly and just go the other way with the tuner.--Mike

[alinwa]

For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said


al

[Chism G]

And then there was the Browning "Boss" system. Suppressor/tuner. My friend had a .223 Browning A-Bolt rifle that he could tune to shoot off the shelf ammo surprisingly well, using the factory recommended settings. Go figure.


Glenn

[mwezell]

For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said


al

Thanks Al! My post probably did need that bit of clarification. I was directing it to Keith, who is a good shooter and felt he would know exactly what I was describing. It does take a good gun to see what I was talking about. IMO tuners won't make a bad gun and/or load good...but they are a tool that lets us keep a good setup working at or near it's potential. I do believe that many people are intimidated by tuners for several reasons though. I find them much easier to use than to understand, frankly. People see a tuner and all those threads on them, and many get lost in the idea of turning and turning, and where do I start. I say, don't worry about it. Just start shooting 3 shot groups, turning the tuner 1 number at a time, establishing biggest and smallest group sizes. It'll go all the way in and all the way out of tune in a small range of adjustment. That range is debatable but with most tuners/guns that I've seen, it'll happen in something less than 1/4 turn. Once you establish a good tune, it's just a matter of fine tuning it if/when it goes out. Within a short time you should be able to judge by group size and shape, how far to turn the tuner to get it back to shooting small. If it's way out, you may still need to fine tune once you get it back to respectable. My experience is that when a gun is as far out of tune as the tuner will take it, the groups just get big and round. When it's close, I can simply tune out the vertical. That range has been between big .3's and .4's at worst and in good conditions, to 0's and teens. Most of my experience is with Butch Lambert's tuners on HV 30's.--Mike

[AVanGorder]

I have three of these and I've been very pleased with them. They are made by Borden Rifles in Pennsylvania.

[FBecigneul]

Adrian;
What does that tuner weigh?
Missed you at the IBS winter meeting.

[mks]

Thanks Al! My post probably did need that bit of clarification. I was directing it to Keith, who is a good shooter and felt he would know exactly what I was describing. It does take a good gun to see what I was talking about. IMO tuners won't make a bad gun and/or load good...but they are a tool that lets us keep a good setup working at or near it's potential. I do believe that many people are intimidated by tuners for several reasons though. I find them much easier to use than to understand, frankly. People see a tuner and all those threads on them, and many get lost in the idea of turning and turning, and where do I start. I say, don't worry about it. Just start shooting 3 shot groups, turning the tuner 1 number at a time, establishing biggest and smallest group sizes. It'll go all the way in and all the way out of tune in a small range of adjustment. That range is debatable but with most tuners/guns that I've seen, it'll happen in something less than 1/4 turn. Once you establish a good tune, it's just a matter of fine tuning it if/when it goes out. Within a short time you should be able to judge by group size and shape, how far to turn the tuner to get it back to shooting small. If it's way out, you may still need to fine tune once you get it back to respectable. My experience is that when a gun is as far out of tune as the tuner will take it, the groups just get big and round. When it's close, I can simply tune out the vertical. That range has been between big .3's and .4's at worst and in good conditions, to 0's and teens. Most of my experience is with Butch Lambert's tuners on HV 30's.--Mike

Mike,
Thanks. I don't know if I qualify as a good shooter, but I understand what you are saying. That it's easy enough to judge tune on target without worrying about temperature, etc. Still, I am curious how well moving the tuner to a position based on temperature would work for the first target of the day, or at least to reduce the number of sighters required to establish tune at the beginning of the day. Hopefully Rod will respond.

Thanks,
Keith

[CYanchycki]

Everyone is subject to there opinions of how they choose to use there Beggs tuner. Gene Beggs the founder of the Beggs tuner, has instructions on the basics of using his tuner. After that it is up to the individual. Some just go with what he has instructed and then there are those that experiment and expand on them. From the LITTLE correspondence I have had with Rodney he expanded and experimented and came up with a process that works for HIM on a consistent basis.

I am pretty sure if and when he has a chance to reply there will be some good info.

Calvin

[alinwa]

Mine weighs 1793gr and some change and has 4 of the plastic thingies, other than that it looks very similar to Adrian's.

al

[Lynn]

Alinwa
In my humble opinion a tuner is useless on a varmint rifle only because of the great variations in distances from target to target.If your hunting is limited to a range of targets varying by only 200-300 yards it wouldn't matter and a tuner would be a major improvement.
Here is a picture of one of my latest models designed by Vibe.I call it Vibes antenna tuner.
Lynn

[alinwa]

Alinwa
In my humble opinion a tuner is useless on a varmint rifle only because of the great variations in distances from target to target.If your hunting is limited to a range of targets varying by only 200-300 yards it wouldn't matter and a tuner would be a major improvement.
Here is a picture of one of my latest models designed by Vibe.I call it Vibes antenna tuner.
Lynn

I can't see that vibe thing working, too much standoff.

al

[JonathanK]

The aluminun body is 1.5 in. The total weight is 3.5 with this small tunner bushing

[JerrySharrett]

The aluminun body is 1.5 in. The total weight is 3.5 with this small tunner bushing

Good workmanship. What locks the adjustment collar in place?

[zippy06]

For all of the folks reading this who are not competitive BR Shooters I feel some clarification is in order.

The above posts, especially this last one by Mike Ezell make this sound easy. I can see folks lining up to buy "tuners" for their varmint rifles.

IT'S NOT

When Mike says "I can see a difference in half numbers" and "It comes on pretty fast" this is like a Formula One driver coming into the pit and telling his mechanic "she's a little loose in corner 6 over there, I think we should crank 'er up just a little on the inside and maybe increase downforce..." And when Mike sez ""reasonably good grasp.....less than 100rds" he's talking to BR Shooters.

This tuner stuff applies to BENCH REST RIFLES. Tuners aren't going to change the world of F-Class shooting... A tuner absolutely will not make your factory or hybrid rifle shoot dots, in fact in my opinion the effects of a tuner are hard to even see when used on a less than accurate rifle. They're also hard to see if you don't KNOW how to shoot, like KNOW where the bullet should have went.

I know, this IS the Benchrest Forum, but that doesn't keep people from making assumptions.

If this caution is inappropriate you guys let me know and I'll delete it.

I felt it hadda' be said


al

All good Alinwa.

[zippy06]

This is good.

Calvin and Rodney. Thank you.

Well, Everyone. Thanks. Great thread.