Rimfire ammo.. Eley??
I dont shoot rimfire so i really have no real concept about the ammo that you benchrest guys shoot, but i have always wondered why there is so many different types of Eley 22lr ammo. What really is the difference between the black box and red box and such. Whats different? Just curious. Lee
Price, for one thing . Someone who is more knowlwdgeable than me will answer, no doubt but as I understand it, the Back Box is suppose to be less consistent than the Red box and the Blue Box less consistent than the Black Box. I have shot some of all of the colors and I will say that regardless of the box color, the rifle has to like it to shoot it well. I had some Blue Box that was as good if not better than my Black Box stuff.
Originally Posted by skeetlee
If I can interject just on the Eley part....I can say this....black box Match as a rule, is just as good as Tenex (red box). There are some really good blue box lots (Team) that have been available. It is an age-old opinion that the ammo is best, better and good as you move down the ladder. It's just opinion. Skeet, are you planning on trying rimfire out? If so, are you thinking Clark's Gun Range next week? I have a 40X, 4 groove Broughton, Shehane ST-1000, Weaver T-36X scope, 1011-04031 Eley Match (black box), and an extra one piece rest if you want to try it out. I cannot pay your entry fee....it is a club tournament (6 targets) probably $40 bucks. But I offer this rifle, rest and ammo if you want to try. It is tough enough to make you pull your hair out and easy enough to make you try again! LOL. Let me know.
John M. Carper
Carp pretty much answered this, I'd only add that red box, on average, is better and so on but there are lots of black box evey bit as good as anything so while the median comparisons hold true there's wonderful stuff at the other levels and it can be found.
I buy what's good at the time ......Back from recon 101 ........
Originally Posted by tim
Like Pete and Carp said its mostly price and opinion. There will be batch's your rifle will shoot and batch's it wont across the colors. Your average Joe club shooter shooting your average Joe club shooter kit will be hard pushed to discern the difference between a good red box and a good black box on a match day over 50yrd. IMO less than 2% of the top scoring shooters are consistent enough to tell the difference reliably and repeatably under real time atmospheric conditions of wind, and heat etc.
Originally Posted by Pete Wass
As I understand it Eley strives to have all their ammo come off the machine as Red box. The lots that don't make the red box cut are put in black boxes and that which does not make that cut go into blue boxes. All three are made exactly the same and it is after manufacture testing that determines what is what. The other types of Eley such as club are made differently with different components so don't apply. bob
From my limited experience ALL red box has a bit more lube on the bullets than do black or blue. I think sometimes the lube on red box is too much. I have found excellent performance from more black and blue box than red box. If you buy blind you might get lucky once in a while. If you test extensively before purchasing case lots you stand a much better chance of finding some good stuff for your rifle. bob
As related by the great Dan Killough:
"Here is how Eley does it.
Tenex, Match, and Team all comes off 6 different machines. Each box is labelled 1011-06031 then below that it will have the velocity. The 1011 is the product code and year stamp. 10 means it was loaded to be Tenex and the 11 means it was made in 2011. Match or Team will probably have the same 10** number to begin with because it was intended to be Tenex, but when testing was downgraded to Match or Team. The 06031 is the lot or batch number. In the U.S. we call it the lot, in England they call it a batch. 06 is the machine number and 031 is the lot. Most competitors would say "I am shooting lot 6031". A lot is produced as long as the machine is running. If the machine is shut down for any reason, then the next time it is restarted, a new lot number begins. Once the ammo is produced, it goes to the test range where it is shot indoors at 50M in 4 different factory Anschutz Rifles. 50 rounds is shot in each rifle for a total of 200 rounds. The group size and average velocity is calculated and if it meets the standard set for Tenex, then it goes in Tenex boxes. If it meets the standard for Match, then it goes into Match boxes. If it meets neither standard, then it goes into Team boxes. The best stuff is in Tenex boxes. Eley will not disclose what these standards are, but they assure me that they are periodically improving the standards. The Match of today would have been good enough for Tenex a few years ago. The velocity on the box is determined from the 200 rounds.
Hope this helps"
Hmmm........ a slight correction of the above is required.
Originally Posted by edgerat
Eley set out to produce Tennex. If the test sample fails to meet the standard deviations set for Tennex the batch goes into Match boxes, if it fails to meet the standard deviations for Match the batch goes into Team boxes. This doesn't mean that only the best stuff goes into Tennex boxes. It simply means that the quaility control mean standards are slightly higher for Tennex and so forth. Based upon a random sample of just 200.
Depending upon the production size of the batch will determine the possible proportion of the rounds that would have passed the Tennex standard. The bigger the batch the greater the % the smaller the batch the smaller the %. Such is the way with set size quality control testing when used as a means of determining quality in regards to volume batch production.The only other way is a predetermined random selection proportional % sample testing procedure.Whilst this ensures a more stringent quality assurance testing process it also adds to production costs. Not something that a manufacture of large volume, low cost per single unit products would be prepared to accept give that they sell all they produce.
Time to compare notes.....I have tried at least 15 different lots of tenex in the last year, and you can double that amount for the Eley match I have tried. What I have found is that I can have just as good or better luck finding good match ammo as I can tenex. If you buy tenex by the box, it costs 17.80 per box as compared to 12.25 per box of match. Not counting the shipping charges if shipped. So I ask my self. Why should I pay 17.80 when I can get just as good ammo for 12.25 per box? What boggles the mind is the fact that Eley charges so much more for the tenex, and yet it does not (always) stand out as the best ammo available. For 17.80 a box the tenex should stand out as the best ammo available from. From all my testing with 5 different (custom) rifles, I fail to see the tenex as the very best they have for that price. I do know,that if you can go to the Eley factory, you can test and walk away with some good shooting tenex. I do not have that option, so I am at the mercy of what Eley sends us. Buying several lots at 17.80 per box of tenex for testing,and finding really good shooting tenex is a gamble, and for the price a person should have much better luck finding a good (or several) lots of tenex as compared to match.
I have to agree with Dan about the fact that the ammo is getting better all the time. Lapua came out with the X-act, telling everyone that it is the best out there,and charge around 19.00 or more per box. It should out shoot everything else out there for that price, and this does not seem to be the case. Not many shooters are willing to pay that much for ammo to begin with, and after all the hype, the biggest majority of shooters refuse to buy it. I feel that if Eley keeps raising the price on the tenex, because it is supposed to be so much better then match, tenex will go the way of X-act. Yes there are a few who really like the tenex, and yes I do have (only) 2 good lots myself, but compared to how many use the match box ammo, the few who do shoot it will get to be less and less the way things are going, and the majority of shooters may prefer match just because of the cost. At 17.80 a box, I will shoot match box, unless Eley shows me that for a few dollars more, I will have some advantage over the others who shoot the lower priced match box ammo or something else. DJB in Wi
I hope Eley doesn't get thier machines working SO good that all they put out is Tenex (thier goal). Luckily we continue to have plenty of Black Box and even Team to test at a lesser price with some good performance.
As much as I enjoy shooting rimfire BR if I have to spend $17.80 a box to be competetive that will probably not make it in my cost vs enjoyment ratio.
I appreciate the offer and i may one day take you up on that if the offer stands. I just dont think at this time in my life rimfire is a game i should be playing with. Sounds even more expensive than centerfire. I like the idea of rimfire as i love shooting score targets. Actually Carp i did borrow one of Alberts rifles a couple years back for a fill in shooter, and i only lost by a single point. First time i ever shot rimfire benchrest. I had fun i really did and dam near won the shoot. I like to read about all rifle shooting sports and the hole ammo thing was something i had always wondered about, so i thought I'd ask. I like to load my own ammo, that way i can control or try to control the outcome of my shot. I dont like being frustrated, and i think the rimfire game would flat pee me off at times. LOL!! No, not really, but i do think it is a frustrating game.
I also shot a prone 100 yard 22lr match this year with a borrowed rifle, and i did win that match, so maybe i am in the wrong sport?? Thanks for the replies, it has been interesting. Lee
Offer stands. Give me an e-mail, call or let me know on this site some time when you might want to try it again. If the rifle isn't already promised, it is yours for the match.
I've never seen an ammo loading machine. I'd expect it to be a highly automated process where the machine has automated feeds for primed cases, powder, and lead bullets. I'd expect the machine to load the components, insert them in boxes and apply the various labels in a continous process depending on marketing and supply requirements. It's my guess they would determine the velocity by the powder charge. The idea that finished bullets are produced, then tested (shot), and then decisions made on how to box and label in separate processes does not make any sense to me from a cost, production, marketing, and distribution standpoint.
Anyone on here ever seen the actual process in person to really know how it's done?
Last edited by burtona; 10-11-2011 at 04:44 PM.
I agree 100%. Kinda sounds like going to the emergency room.....hurry up and wait.