how accurate do you want and what are you willing to give up to get there ??
my ar10 with a 1/15 twist krieger has shot as small as 0.116 with bib 135's.....aggs under .2...but it is a single shot ar.
my ar15 in 223 with a hart 1/14 twist shooting commrcial 52/53's will agg under .2 and is semi auto.
i had a 6ppc but switched to a 6 beggs ...still in work....
all with 36x luepolds of the bench.
my stock ar10 armalite is a .5 moa rifle with berger 175's.......
ohhh by a good scope...some scopes do not handle the double recoil of an ar.....my redfield 8-32 target ate it...
frank whilte or john hollinger would be my first two picks for outside work.......i do most of my own......
a lite sub moa 16" coypte gun for carry will do for home defense, but not a great dog gun.
buy one lower and two uppers........
most black home defense type ar's are chrome lined and 5.56 chamber low maintenence, fair accuracy.
most varmint/target ar's are ss bbl with a 223 chamber.
get a 9 or 8 twist.....will be good for 52 thru short 75/77's
hand sorted bulk winchester brass works very well...have not tried the lapua since they started making it themselves..it used to be junk.
while a lot is said about free float tubes i dont think the average guy is gonna sling up tight enough to cause poi changes.
for blasting go with cheap 55 fmjBT... the boat tail bullet is a little longer, stabilty is bullet length.
for dogs.. a 55 hp or tipped bullet...
if you start with used brass spring for a small base die..use it just once....i have been known to NECK size some of my ar 223 ammo.........yes they say it cant be done. an ar will not fire unless the bolt is closed....go look at how the bolt/firing pin / carrier work together.
ask me ...i'll give you fact based answers...not internet hype.
i'm a stag dealer....so stag, armalite and rock river are my factory reccomendations....
mike in co
Skeet, I remembered another item about the RRA that Mike reminded me about. The RRA has the Wilde chamber that can be fed 5.56 or the .223 ammo and is is sold as a match chamber. Mike has a great idea about buying two uppers. One twist for light bullets and one twist for the heavy bullets. So many choices/ so little time.
Thanks fellas for all the info. i dont think we will be getting the AR any time soon. We are going to put up a second pole building so there goes the time and cash for the AR. maybe this fall we will look at them again. Lee
lee, +1 dittos to the post that suggested buying a RRA lower with their 2-stage NM trigger, and combining it with a varmint upper from White Oak Armament. John Holliger's uppers are top-drawer in every respect, including accuracy & reliability. The A4 flattop upper makes mounting a scope a cinch, although you should consider a sloped rail from WOA to get the scope up for quick alignment w/o having to use extra-high rings.
I have RRAs coyote 20" bbl. Today I was shooting and hitting water filled 16 oz Rock Star cans at 320 yds easily with my hand loads( 26.3 grs of TAC behind Hornady 55 V-max)
I appreciate the razzing though, i actually figured it was coming!! LOL!! You will be glad to know that i have been shooting some of that new pull down lot of 8208 with terrific results!! I love that stuff!!! I just hope it keeps shooting when its 100 degrees out!! Lee
Ohhhh.... It does....... E-mail sent.
I have been lurking in the shadows reading this post trying to find the best combination of parts to use for a Varmint AR Build. I am not really very confident in buying a factory barrel So I was taking the advice of this forum and looking on WOA site. I am wanting to shoot 40G ballistic tips for groundhogs and coyote. WOA is offering a Varmint upper with a 1-12 twist, My question is should I hold out and find a 1-14 twist or would the 1-12 work okay. My concern is over stabilzation and I am not sure if the faster twist would result in any velocity loss. Thanks in advance.
Long term the 1-12 may be better as you will likely want to shoot a few longer bullets in the future.
I have been shooting a lot of 30 gr Bergers and 40 gr V Max bullets in my 1-9 twist 16 1/4" M-4 barrel. Accuracy is quite good but I can not get velocity with this short barrel. My 26" 1-14 twist 222 barrel gets 3,850 fps with the 30 gr Bergers and 3,700+ with the 40 gr V Max while the short 223 barrel will only get 3,300 fps. Both barrels are quite accurate. I shoot them against the 6 PPC BR rifles at our local range matches and win a few points. (Some times I get lucky) With the right load and tune on the barrel these light bullets shoot very good at 100 yards and still group at 300 yards. At terminal velocities over 3,500 fps they are impressive on impact.
With the higher velocity the light bullet do shoot quite well in tricky difficult to read wind conditions.
I shoot both 1-14 and 1-12 twist in my 25 BR. I have not seen much difference in velocity. My 1-12 twist is a 29" Bartlien barrel. It shoots the same loads faster than my two 1-14 Montana Barrels Barrels which are 25.5" and 27" long. Some barrels are just faster than others. To me it seems like my barrels with single point cut groves are faster than the others. (Krigers, Bartlien and a few others are single point cut.) The machine marks in the single point cut barrels run with the barrel and do not appear to have any negative impact on bullet accuracy or bullet stability. The broach cut barrels (Savage for example) often have lines like a rail road track across the lands. Some of these barrels that look bad with the bore scope still shoot quite good. But they usually are not "fast" barrels.
Bullet stability comes from the RPM. The faster the bullet comes out of the barrel the faster it is spinning. More spin equal more bullet stability. For example a bullet at 3,000 fps from a 1-12 twist barrel is spinning 180,000 RPM. From a 1-14 twist barrel you need 3,500 fps to get the spin up to the same 180,000 fps.
Most 222 1-14 twist barrel shoots best with the 52/53 grain flat base bullets. They are stable at 3,000 fps (154,000 RPM) These barrels will shoot a most of the 55 grain bullets flat base bullets if you can get speed up to 3,000 fps. Slower or longer bullets are usually not stable.
The shorter barrels do have lower velocity. When the barrel length goes from 20 to 16" there is a significant drop in velocity. As the barrel length goes longer from 20, to 24, and to 26 inches you will see a velocity gain. But not so much after you pass the 20" barrel length with the 223 case.
Shoot safe & have fun.
Octopus: Thank you for the curtisy of the reply, It's refreshing to information based on actual experiance. It seams like the more answers I get just leads to more questions. Now I guess I need to compare apples to apples. From what I gather from your response your longer barrels are generating more velocity than the shorter barrels This is not surprising.I am planning on cutting the AR barrel to a finished length of 20" So what I need is a comparision of what the velocity difference would be for a 40G bullet propelled by a load of 27.5 or 28G of H335. Using a 1-14 twist VRS a 1-12 twist and from there I can decide if that increse is worth the cost of going with a custom barrel, it's not hard to find a 1-12 for an AR however the only 1-14 I can find is a Hart from A1 rifles. I am leary about the quality of the Hart barrels based on what I have read about the accuracy.
Other things being equal a 1-14 will shoot the 40 gr tip faster than the 1-12. However, just my limited experience, the cut rifle barrel, Bartlien or Kriger will shoot the bullet faster than the Hart as it is not a single point cut barrel. Likely Kriger will make you a fitted barrel if you send them your bolt. I have heard that the Rock Creek AR barrels are very good but I have never used one myself.
H-335 powder will not get the precision that a stick powder like H-4895 E or VV 135 gets. I suspect all of these powders are slow for the 40 gr bullets. I have been using H-4198 with the lighter bullets. (Remember I shoot moly bullets and they go into the lands easier than the naked bullets.
Originally Posted by stall
my ar15 with a hart 1/14 twist bbl shoots under .2
....is that ACCURATE enough for you ??
( 26" just over 1" at the muzzle, gas block moved 2" forward)
52/53 at 35/3600fps........
try some of the 8208.....
mike in co
the bolt is not really required to fit the bbl. the bbl extention and the bolt are made to spec and the headspace can be set with out the bolt....having said that i set mine with the bolt.
if you have the money and the time, i would go with a krieger steel bbl over a ss bbl...it should shoot longer.
mike in co
Originally Posted by Octopus
Mike .2s is very accurate and I would be happy with a AR that would consistantly hold twice that. I mentioned I was suspect about the accuracy of hart barrels and made a note to mention from what I have read, I was mistaken and meant to reference (Shaw barrels) I don't have any firsthand experiance with either . I think you are the first person I have heard of that has a 26" barrel on an AR. I have found a complete upper for sale at Model 1 sales with a 1-14 twist shaw barrel what would you think about going this route?.
it likely has too long of a throat, bu tthat does not mean it will not shoot. when you go 12/14 twist you are gonna shoot small bullets and you need a short throat. most reamers are just the opposite a hybrid reamer to allow shooting heavy bullets.
i guess you should ask them about the chamber/throat first.
the 26 " was so i could cut off the chamber and start over since the reamer was my design and was not sure it would work....its still at 26" 10 years later....
mike in co
Originally Posted by stall
Earliar this year I had the same bug. I ordered a Model 1 Sales complete upper kit. It came with a 8 twist Shaw barrel. (I know Shaw sucks). Anyway it is 20 inches long, varmint contour. I also ordered a Bushmaster lower. The model 1 kit comes with all the parts and options you want. I worked over the trigger with some JP springs and honing. Loaded up some Varget and 70 berger VLD's. Easily shoots .250 moa. I just competed in a Varmint Steel Challenge Match 2 weeks ago and did every bit as good as the guys that showed up with their 1000yd guns. There was some pessemists who said I wouldnt knock over the longer range tartgets. I did fail to topple one at 500m. 2x3 squirrels at 200m, 4x5 crouching rabbits at 300m, 3x8 tall rockchucks at 385m and sitting coyote at 500m. 2 sighters for each distance. A leupold Mark AR scope for optics. The scope turrets are calibrated for 55gr bullets. I found my load was within a click at each distance with the VLD'S. All shot from a bipod and no rear rest and Prone. Would I order another one from them? Hell yes! 6.5 Sporter is next. Oh, by the way, I have assembled and sold 2 others and they shot the same.